Grades vs. Auditions

College Majors Musical Theater Major
1

<p>From browsing around and reading these threads, I started to wonder. As we're all well aware, some schools place a higher emphasis on grades/SAT scores than others. As I've read threads, I've encountered various attitudes towards this. Some seem to value an equally balanced review, while some seem frustrated or negative with a grades-emphasized admissions process for BFA programs. </p>

<p>Obviously, there is no "better" system, but what appeals to you personally? Do you favour a process in which the audition is weighted heavily and grades/SAT scores are minimal, or do you feel as though grades should be equally or heavily weighted for BFA MT/Acting programs? </p>

<p>Personally, I think I value a more well-rounded review. I'm not a huge fan of the SATs, as I don't believe they give a fair assessment of academic character. They certainly favour a certain kind of student. Perhaps the new SAT, with a broader range of subject matter, will improve this. It was also hard for me, as a Canadian, to convert measurements like quarts and litres when we're metric! However, I do believe that grades, to an extend, are important. For the most part, they do show a certain level of work ethic. </p>

<p>I also think it's incredibly important for actors to be aware of the world around them and at least have a sense of current events, history, philosophy, etc. because they and the arts are intertwined. </p>

<p>Granted, this awareness or work ethic might not appear in grades. I struggled through math and science all through high school, was tutored twice a week and never managed above a 70. It's too bad "effort" isn't graded as well. </p>

<p>I leave it to you... what do you think? </p>

<p>*--R</p>

2

<p>It's very interesting that you mention this, as I have been thinking alot about it lately. I really think that the transcript (i.e. your overall high school record, grades and all) play a bigger part in this than we think. The fact is, yes Carnegie or BU or whatever will pull for you if your scores are pretty low and the drama dept knows they want you. However, I think that the dept. chair will only make the call to the admissions director on very rare occasions. They probably don't want to call in a favor unless they REALLY REALLY want a person, because, let's face it, there's probably someone else just as talented with better scores. In addition, if the drama people are struggling between two people, they might go for the one with the higher GPA or SAT scores. Anyone who has talent can learn and perform a monologue, but the person who is smarter will take more from the program. I'm not saying you're not smart, september, I'm just outlining my new treatise on drama school admissions. I think the moral of the story to those kids yet to audition is that even if you know you're going to be a performer, good grades in high school will help you even if you are going for auditioned programs; it'll make the choice of the drama professors much easier to know that you did great in school in addition to your extraordinary talent.</p>

3

<p>You might have misread what I am saying--- I actually completely agree with you! By "a more well rounded review", I meant that I PREFER a process where grades play a major part. Actors-- even talented ones-- are a dime a dozen, but intellectual, smart actors are harder to find-- and often give the best performance. I don't necessarily believe that a number can indicate intelligence (and there are multiple intelligences, etc), but I find that, at least in some way, grades are just as important for a BFA than for every other degree. </p>

<p>*--R</p>

4

<p>I think it makes a lot of sense that some schools take grades, SATs, etc. into consideration - especially in the smaller programs where it’s important that they don’t have a lot of turnover. Most of these schools have a liberal arts core and you have to pass those courses if you’re ever going to graduate. A lot of them are going to make you take a two sciences and a math course if you haven’t exempted them through AP. Also, at a lot of schools, keeping your scholarship is going to depend on your overall GPA, so you’re not only going to have to pass, but actually do well. I’ve ranted about this to some extent on the Theatre/Drama thread, but when you look at the schedules most of us will be pursuing, there really isn’t a lot of time left to work those classes once you get through with your theatre work. I mean, think about it ... You’re in class until 5:00 p.m. with maybe a couple of short breaks in your day. Then, you’re going to have rehearsal or crew from around 6:30 until 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. a lot of nights. Shoot. At Evansville, I’m going to sometimes have work calls from 1:00-3:00 a.m. during production weeks and my GE profs aren’t going to give a rat’s booty about it when they schedule their tests. Obviously, there’s gonna be a perpetual time crunch, so you’d better not only be a quick study, but get VERY good with time management very quickly. A lot of kids won’t make it in some of these programs because of this and I think if I were considering prospective students, I’d give it some serious attention in determining who gets in with all else being equal.</p>

5

<p>The way I look at it, this is college afterall and all the kids are there to be educated. That's why so many programs have yearly reviews both artistically and academically. At the audition there are many, many talented young people, but in the longrun, it is college and, therefore, a place for learning. </p>

<p>That said, I feel academics are vitally important to the success in any program and in getting in to begin with. In my opinion, I don't weigh test scores are heavily as overall high school records. But that's for another forum. Some students are just not "test takers", yet are able to achieve National Honor Society, National Merit Awards, etc. My own child is right in the middle with test scores hovering at 1270 SAT, 28 ACT, and GPA at 4.1. </p>

<p>I just think success at college BFA auditions is based on a lot of factors, and academic history is surely one of them. Personally, it it weren't, I wouldn't be interested in the school.</p>

6

<p>"I’ve ranted about this to some extent on the Theatre/Drama thread, but when you look at the schedules most of us will be pursuing, there really isn’t a lot of time left to work those classes once you get through with your theatre work"</p>

<p>And that is EXACTLY why so many students chose a BA degree over the BFA. A good friend of my dd's was accepted to UCF last year as a BFA and was thrilled. She went through all the happiness and high-fiving as any of you wannabes. She started off the year happy, but soon began to feel that this was not the program for her, and switched to the BA in Theater Studies. She's a much happier camper now, her grades have gone through the roof and she's still able to pursue her love of musical theater.</p>

<p>Somebody said on another forum that some of the BFA's come out of college with much lower GPA's than the BA's. I can see how what would happen.</p>

7

<p>Midgetmom,
Yeah. A lot of people go into this without knowing what they're getting into and either burn out, flunk out, or just change majors. In my case, I've been at a precollege arts high school taking nothing but AP courses and a BFA-like training schedule with an ever-raising bar to jump for two years, so I have a fairly good idea of what to expect. I'm not sure everyone in here does, though. However, like I've said before, a lot of people might be best off getting a BA degree and following it up with an MFA. It really just depends on one's disposition. Doctorjohn put together a nice little [url=<a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/babfa.html%5Dtest%5B/url"&gt;www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/babfa.html]test[/url&lt;/a&gt;] on the [url=<a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/index.html%5DFAQ%5B/url"&gt;www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/index.html]FAQ[/url&lt;/a&gt;] which might help indicate which is best for a particular person. Personally, I'm BFA all the way and would die of boredom going the BA route.</p>

<p>BTW, I'm not going to take extreme offense and don't want to belabor the point, but it would be nice if you wouldn't use the term "wannabes." Maybe it's a cultural difference, but I find it to be somewhat demeaning. I imagine others do as well. Thanks :)</p>

8

<p>You wrote:</p>

<p>"BTW, I'm not going to take extreme offense and don't want to belabor the point, but it would be nice if you wouldn't use the term "wannabes." Maybe it's a cultural difference, but I find it to be somewhat demeaning. I imagine others do as well. Thanks "</p>

<p>I don't understand why you should even take offense at this and it's not a "
cultural difference". A "wannabe" is nothing more than somebody who "wants to be" somebody, i.e., all you musical theater kids are "wannabe" Broadway stars. There certainly isn't any negative component in that statement. It's the same as being a theater "go fer", which is somebody who "goes for" anything the star might need, etc.</p>

<p>Because you are a child, I'm not going to go any further with this. But, I will say you've done your share in alienating me from several good people on other forums. You've even made a total mockery of my concerns by setting up two different threads on "Happy Acceptances" and "Rejections". My mail box has been full the last couple of days with nothing but horrible, emotional filled e-mails that have belittled me, hurt me, and totally attacked me.</p>

<p>If you don't like me, that's your preogative, but please don't alienate me from every forum. </p>

<p>God bless.</p>

9

<p>I really don't want to add ANY fuel to fire- but thesbo clearly was not trying to aleinate you from any forum, MidgetMom. When a thread gets heated its sometimes best to let it die as happened with the "Beginnings Workshop" thread. I doubt she had ANY thought of mocking you or humiliating you. You told people to be more humble on that thread, and thesbo and others wanted a thread where people could "WA-HOO" about their acceptances without any danger of feeling as if they were bragging or hurting readers. That was why the "happy acceptances" thread was created. It was a difference of opinion, and two threads were created so that each desire could be fulfilled. There's absolutely nothing illogical about that that should make you think you were humiliated by this. Additionally, what is most ironic of your postings as of late is that you warned everyone to be wary of the audience they were posting to, that there were many people who DIDNT get accepted to the BFA's on this thread and they should be sensitive to that... but your tone right now is taking on one that could very well hurt the prospective B.F.A. students. And I'd venture to guess that that is the majority on this thread. You tell stories of a person who hated a B.F.A program and then say "Somebody said on another forum that some of the BFA's come out of college with much lower GPA's than the BA's. I can see how what would happen." It could very well be that you are simply voicing your opinions and have a different perspective because of your daughters situation, but just as you have told others to watch their tone- I would think you should watch yours as well. This comes from someone who is planning to pursue a B.A. and later an M.F.A. and in some way agrees with many of the things you are saying. But your tone is one that is demeaning to the prospective B.F.A. students, and I'm sure most readers agree with me. If that is not how you intended it that is fine. But again, like you asserted on the other thread. you must be careful of how you SOUND when posting as internet "emotions" can easily be misinterpreted.</p>

<p>Dani</p>

10

<p>i've seen more than one post comment how they're "sure other readers must agree with them." i think we should just post our own opinions and let others speak for themselves. no one should presume to know what others think. i, for one, disagree with both of those posts. why don't we just let people post and not comment on their opinion. it is, after all, just their thoughts and they have a right to them. and just a thought regarding "wannabe's". there are several screen names using that term so it must be ok with some. i know my daughter is a "wannabe" and would readily admit it. she's hardly a "alreadyam" at this point. goodness, can we just lighten up a bit. j</p>

11

<p>hi i'm new to this forum but i'm interested in studying musical theater in college......i got my SAT scores today:</p>

<p>640 W, 590 M, 550 V</p>

<p>is this good enough for me to get into the musical theater colleges i want to go to? do i need to take it again to be certain that if i don't get in, it will be because of my audition as opposed to my grades?</p>

<p>thank for you all your help</p>

12

<p>Going back to the original subject of grades vs audition, when there are so many kids going for so few spots at some of these school, you know there are going to be many kids whose auditons scores are going to be close if not identical. Of course, they will look at the grades and test scores and other items in a case like that. A bad audition will not be altered by a tremendous academic resume; I have seen top student denied. But all things equal, the better student will, of course, be accepted. That is why students with weak academic credentials should be careful that there are some safety/ matches in terms of those academics in the schools they pick and within the program. Many schools that are not that strong on stats have much higher stats for their MT kids, so even though you may be good as far as the school stats go, you are competing with a high powered group because of your course of study. You cannot depend upon the audition making up for low grades and test scores. Maybe you will wow them into giving you a leeway, but with so many kids out there, it is really a long shot.</p>

13

<p>You are in that batch of students who have taken the new SAT, so those of us familiar with the old one won't be able to compare exactly. </p>

<p>However, my suggestion is to do some additional prep work and take it again. If you could get your Math and Verbal closer together and/or get one of them over 600, I think it could really help...no pressure, huh?</p>

<p>My D took the PSAT 10th and 11th grade year at school and went down an bit in score the second time. We freaked! So, following the advice of a friend whose daughter is an incredible student, we made our D take three practice tests (bought at Borders Bookstore - with answers & scoring instructions included) before she took the SAT for the first time. We set aside 2-3 hours on a Saturday or Sunday for good, quiet testing times. After she took each test, we reviewed the questions she'd missed, talked about word usage, silly mistakes, math strategies, etc. and when she took the SAT for the first time (last June) her score improved 100 points above her PSAT score. </p>

<p>THEN, we took the plunge and provided a tutor for her. They met off and on throughout the summer...probably 6-7 times (varies with each student). The tutor had a list of most used vocabulary words and common math problems. Each week my D had to take a practice test on her own time. When the tutor came she would grade it quickly and then figure out why my D had missed a question. We had a great tutor, I know, and she filled my D with lots of confidence on the first visit...but the main thing was that my D took LOTS of practice tests and reviewed lots of vocabulary by the time she took her second SAT.</p>

<p>My D took the SAT again in October and her score went up another 60 points, with the Math and Verbal moving up together...like you, her verbal was higher. </p>

<p>I'm telling you this because what she did is doable by most students. She didn't spend a ridiculous amount of time studying, but over the course of several months, she familiarized herself with the SAT, the vocab, etc. The tutor was a huge help and I know not everyone can afford that or even find the right person to do itb but I honestly think the tutor gave my daughter more confidence than anything else and got her to take MANY practice tests. (not always the entire test at one sitting...just parts of it)</p>

<p>With all the anxiety surrounding this entire application/audition process, it was great to have confidence going into the 1st and 2nd SAT. Just like your preparation for auditions...years of dancing, singing, acting...you need to prepare and practice for the SAT. If you don't take it again in June, you'll have to wait until the October date. My D didn't take the first one until June and had to wait until October for the second one. Her 2nd scores came in in plenty of time for applications (pushing it a little if you want an Early Decision).</p>

<p>I found a funny book (which now might be outdated since it doesn't include anything about the SAT writing section) called UP YOUR SCORE. It's written by people who made 1600 on the SAT. It has some hilarious pages, good general suggestions about the KIND of questions on the SAT and another LIST of vocab words. It's humor can help take the sting out of the SAT fears.</p>

<p>ONE MORE THING...some MT programs do have higher standards for academics because of the university they are in. My D had to send a FAX of her transcript before Illinois Wesleyan would let her sign up for the audition. We didn't mind doing it, and they were the only ones who asked for that. It's a smaller program and academics are very important at that school, so the MT department can't go to bat for students who really can't cut it at the university as a whole. She got admitted to both the university and the BFA MT program. I also know that each application at NYU (Tisch included) is read by 2 admissions people. Yes, everyone will be talented that gets in there, but they need to see good student potential. </p>

<p>Also, if it's a school that doesn't have as high of academic requirements, and you get into the MT program, then you may be eligible for some academic scholarship money...it doesn't hurt anyway you look at it! </p>

<p>You all know how hard it is to juggle performance preparation and school work. You've all been doing it for years. College is a huge investment of time and money, and schools want you to be successful there.</p>

<p>Enough! It's much easier to write about this now that we're through the process. I know it's an anxious time. The best advice is just BE PREPARED and do it the way that works best for you.
(A few friends of my D's took some SAT prep courses through the standard companies - Princeton Review & Kaplan - and still used our tutor after they took the classes . I'm not sure why, but again, the practice part of it - and taking individual responsibility for studying - probably helps the most.)
Good luck.
Southernvoice</p>