<p>I tend to agree that it’s “down time” or “free time” that is more distracting than EC’s, up to a point. My D has flirted with the line of having so many EC’s that she didn’t have time for homework. But in general, I find it’s true - the more you have to do, the more you get done. And D gets her best grades when she’s the busiest. </p>
<p>mantori.suzuki, best wishes to your son. I have a feeling that a leadership position like this might help him learn to manage his time better, along with many valuable lessons about dealing with and leading others.</p>
<p>In many jobs, this is not true. If you are behind in your work or are facing difficulties with it, you may need to spend extra time at the office during the evening or on the weekends, and/or you may need to take work home. At least, this is true in many types of jobs. Obviously, it decreases the amount of time you can spend with your family.</p>
<p>And then there are jobs where you have to work evenings and weekends even if things are going well – like investment banking.</p>
<p>Just as we don’t expect (most) adults to work all day, every day trying to achieve perfection, neither should we expect that from children in school.</p>
<p>I hear too many parents giving the message, “If don’t have high grades, decrease your other activities and increase your study time until your grades are better.”</p>
<p>A healthier message is, “Study faithfully for X hours per day and get the best grades you can. Use the rest of your time becoming a well-rounded, happy person with friends, hobbies, and skills. Don’t make yourself miserable trying to be perfect.”</p>
<p>I believe the world would be a better place if we all did this.</p>
<p>Again, you choose your priority. At all interviews that I had for my 9 jobs, I mentioned the fact that I will leave at 3:30 with start at 6:30. Yes, there were instances of overtimes and staying until almost midnight, but these were exceptions and I also had instances when I cannot come to the office becuase of need to work form home. It seems to balance out, which salary job is meant to. However, the point of this discussion is not place of work, but students at college and how well they manage thier time. And if 24 hours is not enough to do everything including few hours of sleep, they have to drop some, and I still suggest that parties should be dropped first, while in case of working adult family is priority #1, and not a job.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, I may have misunderstood what you were trying to write:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I interpreted “them, parties” as “extracurricular activities and parties”. But now I think maybe you meant only parties.</p>
<p>In that case, I agree with you. For the large majority of kids, a party is just wasting time with a large number of people, not much more valuable than wasting time by yourself.</p>
<p>The activities I’m talking about are productive activities: hobbies, clubs, athletics, volunteering, etc. I don’t think a student should eliminate all of those things just to get better grades.</p>
<p>We tried to teach our kids that there is a time for everything and they needed to determine their priorities and spend time accordingly. So if a top college was a priority for them, they may have to forgo some activities until they have accomplished admission. </p>
<p>the Japanese have done this forever–work like dogs to get into choice schools and then start the party.</p>
<p>^
It’s well-known that in many Japanese universities you graduate if you can get in and attempt to make some effort. Of course, there are still many, many students that work <em>incredibly</em> hard while in Japanese daigaku (college/university).</p>
<p>The no ECs in HS thing is a bit of a myth, though. Many students are on sports teams, in clubs, etc., and even “cram school” often contains subjects not directly related to academics (e.g., caligraphy and music),</p>
<p>There are important subtleties in this quote.</p>
<p>First, it is important to remember that even at the most selective schools, the “gate” is not set at 4.0 unweighted and 2400. Plenty of students with one or two Bs on their transcripts and with SAT scores in the 2250 to 2390 range get through the gate. For students with statistics in this range, staying active in ECs, writing good essays, and getting excellent recommendations are very important – in fact, they may be more important than trying to bring up an SAT score of 2330 or studying intensively to avoid the possibility of getting a B in an AP course. These students are already through the gate; for them, the tipping factors are high priority.</p>
<p>On the other hand, a student with substantially lower grades and test scores should not feel that good ECs, essays, and recommendations will make up for the lower statistics. Such students will not go through the “gate” at all.</p>
<p>I agree with Marian - you don’t have to have perfect grades and scores to get through the gate (though, obviously, they have to be pretty high). And the perfect scores alone will not result in admission at the very top schools.</p>
<p>Marian, very good points about where the actual gate doors close in terms of grades & test scores.</p>
<p>What opened my eyes to the truth about the “randomness” of college admissions was a talk given at an alumni function by the president of my alma mater. He had formerly been a dean at Johns Hopkins, and he told us (I’m paraphrasing since I don’t have perfect recall) that what he had learned at JHU was that admissions officers are not in the business of admitting individual students. They are in the business of assembling a class. He went on to say that JHU could have filled its freshman class with brilliant, highly qualified students each year, every one of whom wanted to major in biology. But that wouldn’t have made for a very good college experience for any of them, would it? I’ve also heard admissions described by an Admissions Officer at Union College as “assembling the pieces of a puzzle.” When looked at this way, what may seem like “random” decisions from a student’s point of view make perfect sense from a college’s point of view. </p>
<p>Are kids who get 2400 on the SAT really any smarter than kids with a 2200? Are kids with a couple of B’s in challenging classes really any dumber than a kid with straight A’s? The differences are miniscule. The top schools know this. (OK, all schools know this, but the top schools have the advantage of being able to pick and choose who they want to attend their school). </p>
<p>So maybe Johnny’s test scores are 50 points higher than Joey’s and his GPA is 0.1 higher. But Joey has something unique about him - in his background or his interests or his choice of major - that the college wants. The college chooses Joey. It’s not Johnny’s fault. It’s just how admissions works. Johnny will be admitted to another school that appreciates his high qualifications. If Johnny has participated in activities in hs that he chose because they truly enjoyed them, then he still “wins.” But if he (or his parents) chose his activities because they thought it would get Johnny into Dream School, and he gave up things he cared about for them, then it’s a sad loss indeed.</p>
<p>That is true about “manufacturing” an application. I have one daughter than refused to do anything because of college, joined what she wanted, took what classes she wanted, (luckily she lkes a challenge) but wouldn’t even look at a book on how to get into any school. I somewhat admire that although it bothered me at times…will too much free time be looked at badly, but then I would let it go.
She told me of so many students that continued music when their interest waned, sports because it would look good, fought for “president” of a club, sometimes sharing the title, for their applications…and then were very disapointed when they didnt get into their dream schools; there has to be more than that. If a school admissions staff can’t see through the manipulation, there is something wrong. With Ivies, maybe they want it because the competitive nature is what they are looking for, but for most schools, I think you should follow your heart and not go nuts with balancing a lot of things.
I also find with some private schools, the students are forced to do a certain number of hours of community service, forced 2 seasons of sports, etc., why is that better than a public school student choosing less?
It can get a little crazy, but I think grades, recs and what you enjoy should lead your activities.</p>
<p>Debruns- your D would fall into the category of having a holestic attitude. I am relaxing a bit & letting my #2 go this route. She wants to start a new EC- that I truly do not believe has any redeeming value-- it’s just for fun (I am not going to say what it is b/c fans of that EC will be in an uproar). It will be at the direct expense JV possibly V Lax top team in the state-- which has lost it’s appeal to her. </p>
<p>That being said she is still involved in some excellent , community service ECs, a small part time job, etc–so the balance is there and she will have fun w/ this other activity. And studies/academics are the first priority.</p>
<p>livesinnewjersey, I would say you are correct with that, she is very holistic is most things. I just had to bump her sister off CC (she had switched my account while I answered the phone) but she has no interest in seeing what anyone else is doing. She told me if not being able to do a club because of lack of transportation or a job because she can’t travel out of a certain area, hurts her, it is what it is. She can’t do an Ivy camp for 3000 or travel to another country to help anyone, but she feels what she can do at home is meaningful. If the college application process is “who can play the game better” for some, she feels it isn’t for most. Some AO concurred with her that they see through it, but in her eyes, if they don’t want her “as is” than it isn’t a good school for her.
I support her, I think she is much less anxious than her sister, and I think some of my anxiety was based on too much info and a little jealousy of her attitude. And except for 1 Ivy that she might apply to, just to see, (she is taking a class there during the year) most of her colleges aren’t the “top 25” that the “what do we have to do to get in” are played with applications and books are sold about.
I do believe though, as with any resume, it’s all how you put it down and that art can help anyone.</p>
<p>I agree with your D’s approach also Debruns. Same as my kids and I support it 100%. I really don’t care as much about the adcom’s priorities as I do mine as a parent or my d’s as a student and developing adult. There are some interests, activities, and life experiences that will never be of the same nature beyond their current stages of life. I’ll be darned if I’m going to allow them to miss out on any of it for the purposes of tailoring their profile for any adcom. </p>
<p>Do we care about grades, class rank, course schedules? Sure we do. But not at the expense of their overall experiences and personal development. I cringe at some of these posts about putting limits on activities and EC’s at the alter of some adcom’s preferences. They do not get the prilivilege of dictating how my kids devote their time and efforts. Those are our decisions to make. </p>
<p>If the grades and schoolwork are not accomplished for the right reasons it’ll eventually come out. I"m a firm believer in doing things not to impress, but because they are the right things to do. With that philosophy in mind I’ve never had a problem motivating our kids to juggle everything they need to do - and well. Sure, their grades have not always been the very highest they might have been. But they are still very solid given everything else they do. I wouldn’t change a single thing. I’m pretty sure some of these other automatons in training will make great employees for them one day. :)</p>