Graduate Admission into MIT

<p>I am currently an undergrad student in Australia (at Sydney Uni), and for post-graduate, I am quite interested in going to MIT. In a nutshell, I was wondering if people could advise me, in general, what activities I should become involved in, to increase my chances of admission. In particular, what extracurricular activities could I become involved in, and what else could I do that could impress MIT? (eg perhaps learn more computer programming, or something along those lines).
A little bit about me: My main interest in maths. In high school, I was particularly interested in Mathematical Olympiads, and I participated in IMO (International Maths Olympiad ) twice (I didn't do extraordinarily well, like some people that go to highly regarded unis in America have, but I did get a medal both times) ; as well as other less prestigious Olympiad competitions in Australia. I don't have any great extracurriculars, but I do play guitar and tennis. In university in Australia, I don't think there are any significant maths competitions (eg like Putnam in America). However, I am very interested in uni maths, and I've been working through some interesting courses I've found on MIT open courseware. Generally I don't do that well in exams (i.e., I'm not the type of person that would get 2400 on SATs), especially subjects I find boring, but I think I do reasonably well in subjects that I do enjoy.
Thanks. Sorry if this post is in the wrong forum - I'm not sure if there is a separate forum for post-grad entry.</p>

<p>Graduate admissions does not care about activities like tennis and guitar. </p>

<p>There is a Putnam-like contest that is open to internationals; I forget what it's called. You are obviously good at these sorts of contests if you made IMO in high school. The most important thing for you to do is to keep your grades high, get involved in research that you would want to continue as a graduate student, and to ace the math part of the GRE
(shoot for 800). If you get 600+ on the other GRE sections that will probably be good enough. </p>

<p>If you can do decently well at the college math olympiad that will help a lot. Also, you should mention in your application that you participated in the IMO in high school. There are very few high school awards that are big enough to mention on a grad school application, but this is one of them.</p>

<p>Dear CollegeAlum, </p>

<p>Perhaps the Putnam-like contest you are referring to is IMC (International Mathematics Competition for University Students) (<a href="http://www.imc-math.org/)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.imc-math.org/)&lt;/a>. I am not completely sure, but I believe Australia does not send a team to this competition for some reason; if you are referring to another competition, I would be very grateful if you could tell me what it is.
I am trying my best to keep my grades high; and since I am at a university that is nowhere near as strenuous as demanding as MIT, I am doing some second/third year maths subjects now. I would like to involve myself in research activities that my university offers, and I'll try to do as much as I can, once I've learnt a little bit more material for my research to be substantial.
I haven't really heard much about GRE - generally speaking, how difficult is this exam, and what type of material is tested; vaguely, is it similar to SATs? (but tested on more advanced material)?
I understand that extracurriculars like tennis and guitar are inconsequential, but I was wondering what activities I could involve myself in - not so that I could get in just based on these, which is impossible (for me, at least) - but so that the admissions don't view me as someone who is an absolute nerd.
Thanks for the advice.</p>

<p>"but so that the admissions don't view me as someone who is an absolute nerd. "</p>

<p>Don't worry about this. It's not like undergrad admissions. They don't care at all if you have a life.</p>

<p>I don't know for sure, but sounds like IMC is the competition I have heard of before. I would contact your school and/or IMC to see if there is a way you could enter. </p>

<p>Which field do you want to go into? This makes a difference in what advice people would give you.</p>

<p>The GRE is basically like the SAT. I wouldn't even say it is more advanced. I think the verbal and writing sections may be graded harder since the pool of people taking the GRE is more competitive than the SAT.</p>

<p>Research. Do research. Lots of research. Build good relationships with your professors and get top-notch recommendations.</p>

<p>Computer programming skills are beneficial to pretty much everyone in the sciences or engineering, but are highly unlikely to make the difference between you getting in and not.</p>

<p>Being viewed as an absolute nerd is, if anything, beneficial in grad admissions, as long as you have adequate social skills to get along with people in your lab and department. Do the activities that you like, but most of them will provide absolutely no grad school admissions benefit, and you probably wouldn't even put them on an application. Activities that might actually be helpful (other than the obvious "research assistant") include clubs for students in your department, honor societies in your field, student branches of professional organizations (e.g. IEEE or ACM for CS people) in your field, and teaching assistantships.</p>

<p>No matter what, getting in will be a long shot. Make sure there are researchers in the target department whose research interests are a fit with yours. A PhD is about doing research...classes, no matter how cool, are a side note, a way to make sure you have the necessary background to do research.</p>

<p>The GRE is undergoing <em>major</em> gradual revision. I don't remember what stage it's at now, so look it up...the advice you get here may be out of date.</p>

<p>" A PhD is about doing research...classes, no matter how cool, are a side note, a way to make sure you have the necessary background to do research."</p>

<p>Well, this is only true if the OP is not going into mathematics or theoretical physics. Extremely strong performance in classes in one's major are expected in these fields.</p>

<p>hi v_90. i am from australia as well (melbourne uni) and there is a rather "hard" maths competition organised by SUMS (Sydney university maths society). my professor told me that no one is really expect to submit more than 5-6 solutions out of the 10 questions, so obviously it is very hard. the link is below:
Sydney</a> University Mathematics Society</p>

<p>i dont know if this is recognised in the US, but it is among the maths academics in Australia, which perhaps also has connections to academics in the US.</p>

<p>"I am trying my best to keep my grades high; and since I am at a university that is nowhere near as strenuous as demanding as MIT, I am doing some second/third year maths subjects now. I would like to involve myself in research activities that my university offers, and I'll try to do as much as I can, once I've learnt a little bit more material for my research to be substantial."</p>

<p>Firstly, MIT is not THAT hard. If you take a close look at the Maths curriculum at MIT (also Princeton, Berkeley, Chicago etc..) you will find that the curriculum in top Australians universities (USyd, UMelb, ANU) are roughly as demanding as those. Also, USyd is probably the best place to study Pure Maths in Australia (assuming you are in Pure Maths), so just study and do well on your exams, and you will be recognised.</p>

<p>As for research, many australian universities run a summer research program called "Vacation Scholarship". I think USyd must have one also, although you should just go check to confirm this. It runs in the Australian summer (December - Feb) and you will get the chance to be in close collaboration with a faculty. You should do this in the upcoming summer; you don't really need to learn anymore materials to make your research substantial, as long as you konw how to write rigorous proofs (which you should do considering you were an IMO).</p>

<p>Btw, what is your average mark in your previous years of university study?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Extremely strong performance in classes in one's major are expected in these fields.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, strong performance is expected (and not just in those fields either), but it's still a research degree.</p>

<p>My point was not that strong performance is somehow not important. It was that for a PhD, the OP should weight "faculty research fits with my interests" over "they have some cool classes" (though both are worthy of consideration).</p>

<p>"Yes, strong performance is expected (and not just in those fields either), but it's still a research degree."</p>

<p>Well, I think it is considered more important in math and theoretical physics. A 4.5/5.0 plus good research (a publication) from MIT will probably get you in everywhere in most fields. From what I've heard, that is not true for math and theoretical physics.</p>

<p>"Firstly, MIT is not THAT hard."</p>

<p>1) I lol at you.
2) OK, one major. Sure, I'll give you that - a lot of the top universities have similar math. But writing off the entirety of MIT as not being "that hard"? Lol..</p>

<p>

Jessie means classes in grad school, I think, and you mean classes in undergrad. </p>

<p>

...and in fact, they might actively prefer that you don't have a life. </p>

<p>Once you've proven to the graduate admissions committees that you're smart enough to do groundbreaking research in your field, you have to convince them that you're dedicated enough -- I feel like half the battle in grad school is being self-motivated enough to keep on keeping on. If you're thinking about graduate school, you need to want to do research badly enough that you'll persevere through the difficult times, which are difficult and numerous.</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for replying.
CollegeAlum, I'll try finding out more about IMC and other competitions. For my post-grad studies, I would like to finish a phD in maths - as for which specific field of maths I'd like to work in, I'm not sure.
Anonamous, I've heard a lot about the competition, but I didn't even know it was regarded so highly outside Sydney uni. I'll definitely participate; however, in my opinion, it is still easier than competitions such as Putnam and IMC (which I don't think Australia participates in, but I'm not sure). I've heard about Vacation Scholarship, and I'll try to become involved in that. From looking at MIT's open coursework, it seems that they cover material more quickly than at Sydney, but roughly the same topic areas. I am interested in Pure Maths (I haven't had much exposure to harder stats/applied maths). I'm still in first year, doing what will hopefully be a 3-year degree (Science/Commerce); in high school, my marks were generally not that good in subjects apart from maths (usually 90-95, which isn't great considering that the subjects are scaled up very generously and a substantial amount of people get >95 in my school). I'm asking now, to get an idea of what I could do to increase my chances of admission, not because I'm applying soon.</p>

<p>"Anonamous, I've heard a lot about the competition, but I didn't even know it was regarded so highly outside Sydney uni. I'll definitely participate; however, in my opinion, it is still easier than competitions such as Putnam and IMC (which I don't think Australia participates in, but I'm not sure). </p>

<p>Well, even if the MIT faculty isn't familiar with a particular contest, the faculty at your university can indicate what that performance means in terms of future promise. </p>

<p>The most important thing is to do your classes as well as you can. Don't worry so much about these contests. In order to make it to MIT from where you are, you're probably going to have to be the best person at math at your university. Ask yourself what type of performance in class you would need in order for your professors to say that you are the most talented person they had seen in the past 10 years. It's that type of mastery you will need to do well on these contests anyway.</p>

<p>Science/Commerce is 3 years in Sydney? In melbourne its 5 years (6 if you wanna get science honours)...</p>

<p>I would say that the problems in the SUMS are actually "harder" than those of Putnam or IMC. However, there is no time constraint, which means that you can take a few months to complete a few problems then submit it. That said, I found it to be of a differently style to the Olympiad problems; I found the SUMS problems more "fun" because the problem varies alot, whereas the Olympiads problems can simply be catagorised and there are specific techniques to solve each type (although a small degree of creativity is still required). I don't think that you should worry if the SUMS is recognised in the US. The main reason to pursue this should be to impress the faculty at USyd, so you would be recognised as one of the stars of the department, hence getting excellent recommendations. However, if you really are interested in Putnam just for the fun of it then I suppose you could go on an exchange/study abroad program to the US and I assume that you would then be eligible to compete in Putnam.</p>

<p>Btw, I have noticed that in the past, successful applicants into top maths phd programs (MIT, harvard, cambridge, etc..) from australia usually have average marks in the 90-95 range (of course once every few years theres a crazy person getting 96+ average). This mark should place you in the top 3 students in the department. If you can't get 90+ average marks then I would say that MIT is out of your league. Sorry, but MIT is harsh, it wants only the best of the best.</p>

<p>I myself have referred to the MIT OCW many times, and I would argue that the lectures go at roughly the same pace as in USyd & UMelb. However, the difference is that there are alot more assignments/projects, of which also have harder questions. Basically, I gather that MIT wants their students to think beyond what is required for the subject. So if you take you time to study beyond the subject (maybe via doing the assignments from OCW) you would effectively be getting an MIT education, but of course without the prestigious degree and without the benefits of having very smart classmates.</p>

<p>Basically I would say that you should just aim to get the highest mark possible and probably submit solutions to a few questions in the SUMS. The Vacation Scholarship will probably help you to get good recommendations, but since you are in your first year there is no rush; a good time to start would probably be in your 3rd year, although you can start earlier if you get genuinely interested.</p>

<p>PiperXP:
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear; I was referring to MIT's Math. Of course I cant generalise that MIT is not hard since I'm not an expert in every academic fields. The point that I was trying to make is that (in my opinion) what makes MIT special isn't the materials that makes it hard, its the determination and thirst for knowledge from their very gifted students, also with the push/encouragement from their renowed faculty. But of course there are students who struggle to keep up to pace.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Jessie means classes in grad school, I think, and you mean classes in undergrad.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Exactly.</p>

<p>I think the problem here is my wording what I was trying to say badly. From the way the OP worded their post, I got the impression that they were enthusiastic about MIT based on the interesting classes offered. I was trying to say that they should look first and foremost at the research being done when deciding whether it was a good fit for them, not the classes (the classes are certainly something to consider, just not, IMO, the primary consideration).</p>

<p>Anonamous: I agree that many problems from Putnam are problems that can be solved by certain clever techniques/tricks, and considering that the scope of knowledge required for IMO is limited, in IMO too frequently problems all of which may be solved the same general trick/technique tend to crop up - it is hard to prevent this, considering with the multitude of problems available, it is hard to come up with something completely original. In my opinion, what I enjoyed most about IMO problems are the problems that were original/different/strange, and would often be lattermost questions in the paper. In competition conditions, I find it difficult to solve these problems; but trying these problems and solving them in my own time is always very satisfying, since the solutions are very beautiful and elegant, requiring some trick that isn't well-known.
My Science/Commerce degree would usually be 5 years here as well, but I hope to finish a bit earlier by overloading maths subjects and doing some subjects in winter/summer school - some commerce subjects, especially first year ones, tend to be quite dry, so I find it much more enjoyable doing really interesting maths subjects at the same time. I have a friend who's doing Honors currently in both subjects and will have finished after just 4 years, I hope I can do something similar.
About my marks, I am confident that with some work a 90-95 average in my Maths/Science subjects should be doable(but getting >95 I would find difficult). However, with Commerce, I'm only doing this course so that jobs (eg financial analyst/ investment banking) could be open to me; while some subjects (eg Microeconomics) are interesting, many others are quite boring and I'm not at all confident about getting a 90+ average; with some work, I think it's more reasonable for me to expect an average of ~80 in those subjects. Would that impact negatively on how MIT would view my application, if I had (by MIT's standards) not-so-impressive marks in Commerce?
When the time comes, I'll have a look at what research being done at MIT, but I highly doubt that will change my decision to hope for admission; I think it's very unlikely that I am solely interested in some area of research, which MIT isn't top-notch in.</p>

<p>"However, the difference is that there are alot more assignments/projects, of which also have harder questions."</p>

<p>And honestly, that's what makes MIT so hard (for me at least). Moving quickly through material isn't a problem - but the knowing everything inside out, the crunching your brain through the problem sets - that's the difficult part. I also think it's the part where MIT students learn to be MIT students.</p>

<p>to v_90:
That is very hardcore indeed, trying to complete a 5-years degree in 3 years. I have never heard of anyone successfully pulling this off, but of course you're a smart fellar (Bronze IMO). MIT is top notch in many areas, the problem is actually getting in. Basically, just try your hardest to get the best mark possible, and remember that there is no need rushing to finish your degree. Just take your time, and really learn the materials. Once you have done the vacation scholarship you will have a much better idea what is required for admission to a PhD. You most probably become close to a professor and he/she can advise you on this much better than I can. They will be able to tell you whether you have a realistic shot, and advise you on how to improve your chances.
Grad admission usually focus on the grades in the last two years, since this is usually the time when the subject gets interesting, diving into current research. Also, your math/science marks will have the most weight, although if you do unbelievable bad in your commerce the adcom might suspect something. But 80 is not bad, it is still very good, and should not affect your chances at all.
Good luck on your academic journey. Maybe we will meet a few years down the road; I am interested in grad school at MIT and Berkeley.</p>

<p>to PiperXP:
You're probably right. I have noticed, via the OCW, that the problem sets at MIT is definitely harder than my assignments over here (Melbourne Uni). After all its MIT!! They push you beyond the "already very hard" problems. What I was saying earlier was that any students at most other top universities will get a good education like that of MIT's, if they make the effort to go beyond the standard course material.</p>