<p>Ruppy, just to clarify, 5 schools historically have been referenced as the top LACs in the Midwest…Carleton, Grinnell, Oberlin, Kenyon, Macalester…generally in that order. Carleton has rated as a clear #1, with Grinnell a pretty clear but perhaps more arguably #2. The next 3 are virtually indistinguishable, allowing that by name recognition most might think of Oberlin next (and I say might because Kenyon has quite a bit of name recognition from the Kenyon Review, the English department in general, Paul Newman, the swimming team, etc). That said, Macalester very possibly has surpassed Oberlin and Kenyon into the #3 or even #2 slot. </p>
<p>I think the grad rate concern about Oberlin is a red herring. I raised a similar concern about Univ of Rochester, which for its stature also had a surprisingly low 4 year grad rate. Both Oberlin and Rochester have conservatories which perhaps is a factor, and/or perhaps they account for their 3-2 students differently. </p>
<p>And finally, Oberlin is not the only school that has integrity and stands up to “the Man” (US News). Reed is the most famous, but the outgoing Kenyon Prez has perhaps been more outspoken than anyone and Kenyon is one of the schools that ceased to cooperate with US News years ago.</p>
<p>finalchild, my definition of “historically” may be older than yours (say late 1960s). Nevertheless, I think that I’ll simply stick with saying we obviously don’t agree on LA colleges.</p>
<p>I remembered reading an interesting article about Oberlin and college rankings in the Oberlin alumni magazine. I found the article. It doesn’t address graduation rates head on, however it does mention that if school concentrates on improving key variables, including graduation rates, it will rise in the rankings without fundamentally improving what they offer. In other words, if a colleges markets and manages solely to obtain good figures, the college will rise in the rankings. However, the article is primarily about how the rankings now are powerful enough to beget future rankings - they are self-fulfilling on their own. </p>
<p>Ruppy, Did you ever get an answer/explanation from the source? I just read an article that discussed this very issue (though not specifically about Oberlin). That article linked to a “microsite” within the website for The Chronicle for Higher Education. The information here ( [Institution</a> | College Completion](<a href=“Student Outcomes”>Student Outcomes) ) shows a 4 year rate of less than 50%. Even accounting for double degree students, that seems off. Of note: this website has a comparison feature - including the ability to make a custom peer group.</p>
<p>The odd thing about this chart is that although the data is current - for 2010 - if you look at the historical chart, there is a tremendous drop from 2009 where the 4 year rate was 72%…(which is about average for all the other years past). So I have to wonder what happened in 2010 and has it been addressed?</p>
<p>Sorry. I was typing on a phone and couldn’t be quite accurate there. If you download the raw data behind the site, you’ll notice that every group but white men has data in the most recent year, who show 0 4-year graduates. Given the large number of them, it pulls down the entire rate . No other group shows a drop-off. In fact, if you look at various demographic groups over time, the trends in 4-year and 6-year graduation rates appear to be upward in the last decade, sometimes very strongly so.</p>
<p>Even after a visit to Oberlin, I can’t say that I have a satisfactory answer to the graduation rate question. The four year rate must be affected somewhat by the presence of dual degree students who are expected to take 5 years. I will get in touch again, because I still have other questions relating to school requirements. Median board scores of LA students, I was told (I think), are as reported to US News. </p>
<p>I don’t know if I’ll ever get a satisfactory answer to this question. I a world where the value of a traditional liberal arts education is being questioned, I worry that many small schools are getting very defensive.</p>
<p>This is important to you, presumably, because you want your kid to graduate in 4 years?</p>
<p>Here’s my D’s anecdotal information: 1 roommate will graduate in 3 years, 1 roommate dropped out. 1 friend spent a year in DC interning after soph year so will take 5 years to graduate–but she didn’t pay for the extra year. One friend applied to the double degree program as a sophomore, so she did add a year. All the rest of her friends (and her) are on track to graduate in 4 years. </p>
<p>In the end, the question is really whether there are kids who want to graduate in 4 years but aren’t able to due to some institutional reason. I, at least, haven’t heard of any.</p>
<p>In a world where the value of a traditional liberal arts education is being questioned, I would worry about rushing the kid who wants to take a bit longer and explore more widely.</p>
<p>“This is important to you, presumably, because you want your kid to graduate in 4 years?”</p>
<p>Sorry, but your assumption is not correct. With a 4-1-4 schedule, there is no reason for a traditional liberal arts student not to graduate in 4 years without some reason. Changing a major as an upperclassman is a reason. There are others. But why would one college have materially different rates than other comparable colleges? The whole point of a LA college is broad exploration. Oberlin is not the only school to favor broad exploration, and 4 courses is not an especially heavy course load. So, yes, I’d like to know what is different. As you say, is there an institutional reason, which would in my opinion include admitting students who had issues with the school, whose expectations differed from the reality, or perhaps were just not ready to attend the school.</p>
<p>I confess that I am also a bit concerned that Oberlin spends a substantial amount to attract students, presumably those with higher boards or some other desired quality, who have not requested financial aid. </p>
<p>Now that I think about it, I have never known anyone who couldn’t complete a single degree in 4 years, without a huge change in majors, or without taking a year off. You mention those examples. I would, however, rather my daughter spend an extra couple of years picking up a second graduate degree, than spend 5 years as an undergraduate without a good reason. What happened to summer school if one is a few credits short. Students I spoke to at Oberlin told me that 5 courses was do-able, if not always fun. Does anyone consider 4 years to be a “rush”? Three years is a rush, and I wouldn’t encourage any student to try that unless (a) they were exceptionally talented and/or had lots of AP credits (which I could care less about); or (b) they were in financial difficulty. </p>
<p>Exploring widely is great, but Oberlin’s standard curriculum seems to offer lots of opportunity for that.</p>
<p>Oberlin does not offer summer sessions so that’s not an option if a student is short on credits. I believe there is a cap on how many courses you can bring in from another institution (not including classes taken on an approved study-away through another institution). There is probably also a cap on how many credits you can bring in with AP/pre-matriculation college classes but I’m not sure what it is with the new changes to graduation requirements. I believe that with the new graduation requirements, none of those “brought in credits” can be used to satisfy distribution requirements. I wonder if that will have a bearing on graduation rates down the line?</p>
<p>I wonder if Oberlin has data on the number of “super seniors” (here I mean specifically kids who have the credits to graduate but stay an additional year to take other classes). At some schools it is quite common - a very few schools even support this with a ‘free’ fifth year (not for a BA/MA - that’s a different 5 year program)</p>
<p>Other schools offer summer sessions. I suspect Oberlin does have a cap.</p>
<p>I did ask about whether winter programs offered by other schools/programs would qualify for wintersession credit. The answer was “yes” if a faculty member signed off, but I got the feeling that Oberlin preferred its own programs (could be ego, could be money). I was silly enough not to find out whether winter programs abroad were covered by tuition, or were extra.</p>
<p>Oberlin is a college with a long tradition of excellence. It also has a very distinctive personality. Students at Oberlin tend to have diverse interests - which they are encouraged to explore during the January term. Oberlin’s Jan term is much more organized than others I’m familiar with. Students can take classes or engage in research on campus, but most get internships far away from the school. Sometimes those internships tern into jobs or longer commitments than a January term. Students at Oberlin are treated as individuals, so if a student decides to stay at an internship over the spring term - so be it, but they may graduate late. I’ve known a student who added a fifth year to graduate because he wasn’t ready to leave - he changed his major as an upperclassman. I’ve heard of others who decided to get a double degree after freshman year. But I think the figure of 46% of freshman as graduating is ridiculously low. At graduation, hundreds of students graduated along with my son. Some of his friends were staying for a fifth year. The difference between Oberlin and the types of schools where graduation rates are low is that kids were adding a year by choice, not necessity.</p>
<p>Sorry, but I don’t know why you say that. I can list a number of schools offhand—Wellesley, Smith, Colby–that have January programs, either optional or mandatory. Oberlin faculty have confirmed that many of their offerings would qualify for Oberlin’s January session. There is no reason why any student, at any of these schools, would be prevented from taking time off to pursue an interest. Leaves of absence aren’t uncommon. </p>
<p>Now, I don’t know how the stats work. It seems to me, though, that taking time off would be treated the same at all. So why are the stats so different? Schools with higher graduation rates are frequently academically desirable schools requiring a traditional liberal arts education. Those students double major, change majors and do all those things you mentioned. What makes Oberlin students different?</p>
<p>I’m not sure I understand what the controversy is in terms of the AVAILABILITY of data. Reliable data is available in colleges’ Common Data Sets, which for the most part are available on the college web sites. Because there are “standards” with the CDS–set by the schools that participate and the reporting type entities involved, e.g., the College Board–this is probably the best way to compare schools. In section B, raw numbers are given for number in cohort, number of cohort that graduate in 4, 5 and 6 years, and 6 year graduation rate. So, you can compare any schools that you want. There necessarily is a lag with the CDS because, for example, the 2012 report goes back to the 2006 cohort to be able to report the 6 year graduation rate. But I doubt that the numbers would change much in a 1 or 2 year period, I think that’s about as good as you are going to do. Based on the 2012 CDS and using Kenyon as a comparison school since that seems to be the school discussed in thsi thread, it does look like Oberlin’s 4 year graduation rate is lower, in the low 70’s vs Kenyon in the low 80’s. 5 year rates are much closer, 83% vs 86%, 6 year closer again, 85% vs 87%. I’m not sure why the Oberlin 4 year rate is lower, though I would guess that at least in part it’s related to the Con. It’s not broken out, but it would be interesting to compare the grad rates of Oberlin Arts & Sciences vs peer schools such as Kenyon, I would guess they are not much different. Oberlin’s 6 year grad rates and freshman retention rates are about where you would expect them to be, very similar to peer schools. I’m not sure its fair to compare them to Williams and Amherst, unless you are going to also compare Kenyon, Macalester, etc. to those places.</p>
<p>Oberlin is a phenomenal school with a very long and distinguished history. I would presume the Conversatory plays a role in the 4 year rate, similar to Rochester. What hasn’t been mentioned is the type of kids that go to Oberlin. My impression is that Oberlin attracts extremely bright, mostly very liberal students who do not necessarily comply with convention. Maybe some take an extra semester or so because of some qualitative experience. Maybe there’s actually an additive reason. Maybe it’s actually BECAUSE the students are talented and free-spirited. At any rate, I am sure it is not because of the relative quality of the institution or any inherent extra difficulty graduating in 4 years compared to its peers.</p>