<p>I searched the forum and found several threads on Oberlin's graduation/and retention rates, but none were recent. I apologize if I am bringing up a tired topic, but I would be very curious to know if the rate 4 year graduation for Oberlin students (liberal arts not conservatory) is materially different from that at other LA schools whose students have similar, or higher, entering SAT scores (yes, I know that test scores are not a good measure of a school, but I prefer them to US News rankings).</p>
<p>If the freshman retention rate is not discernibly lower than that at the competition, I have yet to see a satisfying answer. I understand that dual degrees can take five years (I have another child who is pursuing a dual degree at another school, and will need 158 credit hours - most semester courses are 3 credits there). It seems to me, though, that Oberlin must have statistics on single degree liberal arts students.</p>
<p>That’s a really good question! You would think that information would be readily available, and that it would be available for both the Con and the College individually. I suppose the admissions offices can tell you that if you were to call.</p>
<p>There is data in the CDS about the graduation rates, but it is from 2005 and 2006. I don’t know why that isn’t updated in the CDS, but it is like that for ALL schools for graduation rates. There are websites that claim to have information on graduation rates, but if they are using the CDS - none of that would be current. For example, USN&WR does have a list of schools with the 'best" four year graduation rates, but it is all garnered from 2005 data.</p>
<p>As to retention rates, that is actually reported in the CDS (but only for Freshman). According to the Oberlin Common Data Set - for the class entering as freshman in 2011, 93% were enrolled in 2012. At Williams and at Swarthmore the rate was 97% . Dartmouth is 98%. If those were the sort of schools you were thinking about - Oberlin’s retention rate is a bit lower but I don’t know if you’d consider that a significant difference - and of course I don’t know the graduation rates at those schools.</p>
<p>Try ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■- shows 49% for four year grad rate but that is 2010 data I think. This site shows 4, 5, and 6 yr rates plus freshman retention and federal loan default data. Can customize too.</p>
<p>I must respectfully disagree. I read that thread, and I found the posts generally unsatisfying. As plmdin points out, freshman retention rates are very high at a few LA colleges, including Williams. That difference is significant, reflecting the most competitive nature of admissions, and the lack of better alternatives. 94% (US News 2012) would be slightly lower than the next tier (in difficulty of admissions) but not necessarily material. Reed College, though, has a lower retention rate, which accurately reflects a large number of students who preferred to be elsewhere (a negative to me). 4 year Graduation rates of non dual degree students at Oberlin (and other schools) are material. The course load at Oberlin is not so demanding that a liberal arts student should not be expected to graduate in 4 years. If the number is lower than that of comparable schools, I would care. </p>
<p>The thread you cite talks about dual degrees, or the especially freedom loving nature of Oberlin students. I don’t find either argument cogent or convincing, especially given Oberlin’s reputation for superb academics. If bright, articulate students are leaving at a higher rate than at other good LA colleges, I’d like to see a better explanation, or get better statistics. I don’t believe the 49% number. I’d like to hear that it is plain wrong.</p>
<p>The numbers look extremely similar <em>except</em> the four-year graduation rate (over at Oberlin). It would be interesting to know how much of an effect the Dual Degree students have - so asking a college rep (as milkweed suggests) is a good idea.</p>
<p>Thanks. I am curious as to why you picked Kenyon as a comparison. In the past, Oberlin would have been in a different league. Why not Carleton? </p>
<p>I will do as Milkweed suggested regarding asking a college rep. </p>
<p>As has been stated, however, there is a difference between freshman retention (how many just wanted out), and graduation rate. I find that the statistics that would be most useful, are not available. My experience suggests that many transfers occur after two years rather than one, but no one has sophomore retention stats. Four year graduation rates would be the most important (that is the target time frame for LA, although with AP perhaps 3.5 would be better). Six year rates would be useful, but only if one could see how many fail to graduate in four years, but do ultimately finish.</p>
<p>Looking at these numbers, the “overall graduation rate” at Carleton is 93% vs 88% at Oberlin (and 87% at Kenyon). The fine print for this statistic indicates that it factors in the “normal time” for completion of a program, so if properly done, should correct for things like dual-degree program.</p>
<p>How did I pick Kenyon as a comparison? Using my favorite trick: I typed “Oberlin vs” into my search engine and picked the top auto-suggestion. :)</p>
<p>Ruppy1,
Funny we’re having the same concerns in multiple forums!
If you get an answer from the college rep you talk to, please share it here. I also wonder how they count students who go into the 3-2 program, since they leave OC after 3 years. I would assume that when they finish after 5 years that they count as graduates for both OC and their engineering school, but I wonder whether both schools count them as taking 5 years to complete?</p>
<p>I did download the most recent Princeton Review “Best 377…” to Kindle. It shows 4 years at 69%, six years at 83% and freshman retention at 94%. Freshman retention is not spectacular, but not out of line. 69% is low. </p>
<p>Comps at WU (for tw23md), in same order: 86,93,97. Smith: 80,85,94. Scripps: 83, 88, 91. Note: women’s college are interesting comps because many decide that they don’t like single sex education. Other comps that might be interesting as similar schools - Carleton: 88, 93, 96; Kenyon: 83, 87, 94; Bowdoin: 88,92,97. Finally, please notice Reed which is not a college I was comfortable with (which my other kid loved initially, but chose not to apply) 59%, 79% and 90% .</p>
<p>I hope that Oberlin’s 69% is, in fact, due to a huge percentage of dual degrees. I still hope to get numbers, and thoughts, from the source. </p>
<p>Disclaimer: Stats are Princeton Review. Choice of comparison colleges was mine, using no scientific method whatsoever.</p>
<p>I’m a parent of a recent graduate of Oberlin. I know my son had two friends who stayed for a fifth year - one to complete a dual degree and another who decided to change his major late in the game. To Oberlin’s credit, no one is pushed out if they take longer to complete their degree just because it would look better statistically. I know it isn’t going to satisfy those looking for hard figures, but Oberlin has decided to focus on providing excellent individualized education - on its own terms.</p>
<p>thatsall,
My older daughter is in the middle of a formal dual degree program at another school that will require 25% more credit hours than a single degree. It might be possible to do in 4.5 years and some summers, but 5 years is reasonable. I say this because I understand dual degree programs can take longer. I would also say that if I share your appreciation for institutions that focus on providing excellent individualized education. That is one of the benefits of a true liberal arts college. I can say, however, that all of the institutions my younger daughter is considering meet the criteria you describe. None would push a student out after four years. Students change majors all the time. So, I’d still like to understand why Oberlin has different statistics than schools with similar students, and similar values.</p>
<p>I’d like to understand how the statistics on conservatory students differ from those of liberal arts students. I would like information to provide an apples to apples comparison. Otherwise, Oberlin raises questions because its statistics differ from other excellent, schools. In one case, two years ago, it was a difference in another college’s statistics, subsequently validated through conversations with faculty and administrators, that took that school out of consideration. They had “their way” of doing things, and that included a surprising number of students leaving, which seemed to be a point of pride to that college. Now, Oberlin is not anything like that. It just makes sense to follow up on a statistical discrepancy as part of normal due diligence.</p>
<p>As the person who started the other thread mentioned in here – and now with a son at Oberlin (and STILL at Oberlin) – I’ve found from experiences that he has shared with me that the freshman retention rate figures are very much a factor related to the Con where everything depends on the one-on-one relationship “clicking” with student and instructor.</p>
<p>As early on (or far along) in a serious music student’s career as the freshman year of college, artistic differences can make a sustained conservatory experience totally unworkable. That’s a lot different than not liking the teaching style of your foreign language or sociology course. You can avoid that professor – or that department in most cases – for the rest of your time and it’s just one course. The Con is different. It’s more akin to athletics where the coach matters. Of course the NCAA imposes significant barriers on student-athlete mobility that suppress the transfer rates…and those barriers don’t exist with music.</p>
<p>I’m sure the admission department tracks this – even though it’s not on the CDS, so it’s not compared or used by USN&WR and others in their ranking algorithms. Still, if I was running a college with a conservatory, I’d definitely want the numbers broken down between college and con. I assume they do that. Whether they’ll share that information is another story. So, in the event you don’t get a spreadsheet that cull out the datapoints that reveal where the differences exist I’ll just share with you that my son’s anecdotal reports about life at Oberlin jibe with the answers that I received a couple years ago. The students that he knows who left after freshman year were all with the Con. That may be on account of him living in a dorm near the Con and having a large number of friends who were in the Con or double-degree program. I don’t know.</p>
<p>Now, he and I never actually sat down specifically to reconcile his conversations with a thread I started on CC when he was still deciding which colleges to apply to. (I’m nearly positive that he has no idea that I asked the question on CC in the first place.) I can only say, as a father who was equally interested in (and concerned with) this specific issue, is that as I look back through that thread, the answers that I got – and challenged at the time – ring true today. There was no bait-and-switch. I have no sense, now, on revisiting that thread, that people who responded were gilding the lily or making a silk purse from a sow’s ear. I just looked back at that thread and the answers that I received that I met with some initial skepticism and all the way through my reaction today was, “Yeah, that’s basically exactly how my son describes it.”</p>
<p>Thanks, I appreciate the anecdotal information. Believe it or not, I am not obsessively quantitative by nature, nor do I put much stock in rankings. Unfortunately, the world of education is changing rapidly. Reputations are years out of date, but “rankings” are based, in part, on ridiculous criteria (such as the opinions of high school guidance counselors). I would prefer to follow up on possible red flags before my kid makes an initial decision. </p>
<p>I hope to get some numbers during a re-visit. I also would like to see a breakdown of board scores between music students and liberal arts students. Either way, the ultimate questions will come down to perceived academic quality (including a perusal of the course catalog), personality fit with my kid, and her fondness for a small school in Ohio.</p>
<p>I AM obsessively quantitative by nature…which is why I think my son is grateful that the decision was his to make. Good luck with your daughter’s re-visits. And I DO hope you get some data satisfaction in the process (and share it here, if you do).</p>
<p>Ruppy, since when is Kenyon is a different league than Oberlin? I assume you mean lesser. That’s news to me. We do thank Oberlin for the assist on our new President.</p>
<p>finalchild, I didn’t mean Oberlin or Carleton as lesser, but you knew that. I will concede that arguing the issue is silly, and can happily agree to drop this particular subject.</p>
<p>The Oberlin Conservatory is in a large sense a professional school. While the conservatory has a large number of graduates that go on to higher degrees, there are many students especially the performance majors who may duck out for various reasons including the ones mentioned by D’yer Maker. Additional reasons include a performance major decided not to go the BM route and switches to a shorter time frame Performance Diploma at the Conservatory, or they just decide to hit the road literally and perform now having Oberlin and the teacher they studied with on their resumes.</p>