<p>Irene, I'm amazed they don't know Pomona. Didn't the prez of the college come from an East Coast university of some repute?:)</p>
<p>Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me how many people don't know about Pomona. I would say that is the worst thing about Pomona (I had a great experience there)-- that so many people give me blank stares when I say I went there. And there's nothing much I can do about it, unless I want to spout the average SATs or admissions rate or something! </p>
<p>Ah well... maybe someday it will be well known...</p>
<p>Thank you all for your comments. Apparently there ARE issues here people want to discuss! We would enjoy any other stories about people's experiences with the GRE.</p>
<p>Since people are questioning the need for these tests, I'll just say for the record that the school where my son is applying doesn't require it, but recommends it if a good score will bolster the application for merit aid and scholarships. I guess we're kind of gambling his score would help more than hurt. He probably won't be in a position to take it multiple times, or even twice.</p>
<p>A brief comment on grad (PhD) admissions, based on my experience handling such admissions. I concur with sac's summary of the situation. We usually know the quality of the colleges/programs that students come from, including the foreign ones. But for things such as the assessment of math aptitude, the GRE is pretty helpful. Verbal assessment is so language-dependent (i.e., GRE works to the disadvantage of non-native English speakers) that we don't pay as much attention to the verbal part of GRE to assess ability to complete the program. We do look at TOEFL, but it's not a very reliable predictor of English ability, especially (it seems) for students from E. Asia.</p>
<p>What's more important to realize is that while we use GRE, and GPA, we look carefully at other elements of any application: (1) personal/career statement, (2) quality and details of the transcript, i.e., what courses/subjects has a student taken/mastered (high grades in stats/math courses can outweigh low GRE math), (3) research experience, (4) letters of recommendation, and (5) "fit" to our program -- match between applicants' interests and the interests/specialties of our own faculty. We make a holistic assessment of the applicant, and don't use any specific formula for weighting the different components of the application.</p>
<p>I echo Mackinaw's comments about the holistic assessment of applicants into graduate programs, except that I am somewhat more familiar with humanities/social sciences applications where the quantitative score is less important (depending on discipline, of course). I have known some cases where applicants came from colleges that were either unknown or were not considered as selective as the usual "feeder" colleges, and the recommenders were unknown. In some cases, high GREs actually played a big role in getting the applicant admitted into a M.A, or Ph.D. program, as they validated both the GPA and the rave recommendations from these unknown profs. In at least one case, another applicant from the same previously unknown college was admitted the following year, the first applicant having performed spectacularly in the first year of grad school. In other words, sometimes the GRE has allowed some selective Ph.D. programs to go beyond the "usual suspects" and take a chance on applicants.</p>
<p>How much research?? :/</p>
<p>So...once again I've going to ask this stupid question:</p>
<p>What the heck goes on a resume??</p>
<p>Mackinaw (and Marite) -- I've also sat on an admissions commitee for a graduate program. We did look at everything you've mentioned plus writing samples that were particular for the program.
I guess what strikes me is the idea of taking an "aptitude" test after college, since presumably your actual performance in college should count a whole lot more at that stage. You are no longer the unpredictable quantity you are as a high school student who has never lived away from home or handled difficult books and assignments. As an aptitude test for undergrads, the SAT is not as good a predictor for college performance as high school grades. I'd think it would be even worse as a predictor for grad school performance. Perhaps MCATs and LSATs are more rational-- presumably measuring something particular for those professional programs. But GREs strike me as such generalized verbal and math tests that I'm not sure what they measure.</p>
<p>bluealien -- your college probably has a career office that holds sessions on resume writing, etc, and will go over your resume with you.</p>
<p>Sac, I basically agree with you. One reason we focus on the math GRE, however, is that a surprising number of students get through college with few or no math courses. They may even have placed out of taking any math, based on high school grades or tests (e.g., SAT II). So looking at math GRE -- and math ability is relevant to our program -- gives us one piece of information about their ability to handle our core curriculum.</p>
<p>My son just took the GREs over the holiday break using the computer format. He told us that the test is quite similar to the SAT and a very high percentage get 800 in the math, while the verbal scores are spread out more widely, so that 720, for example, the 98th percentile, I believe. Personally, I think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to give the same math test to prospective graduate students in Physics and Comparative Literature. The appropriate test for one is going to be way to difficult or too easy for the other. By the time someone has finished a major in college, it seems a more specific test, if any standardized test is to be taken, would be in order.</p>
<p>Reflecting the kind of concerns that you express, the GRE is under revision. Changes are expected to be implemented sometime in 2006:</p>
<p>"Changes to GRE General Test Being Investigated</p>
<p>The current GRE General Test contains three measures: verbal reasoning, quantitative reasoning, and analytical writing. The GRE Program is investigating possible changes to the verbal reasoning and/or quantitative reasoning measures in order to increase the validity of the test measures and provide faculty with improved information on which to base their decisions. The GRE Program is currently planning to implement these changes in October 2006.</p>
<p>The avenues under consideration for the verbal measure include:</p>
<pre><code>* More text-based materials such as reading passages
* A broader selection of reading passages
* Emphasis on skills related to graduate work such as complex reasoning
* Expansion of computer-enabled tasks
</code></pre>
<p>The avenues under consideration for the quantitative measure include:</p>
<pre><code>* More depth of quantitative reasoning skills
* More breadth of quantitative reasoning skills
* Question types that require production, rather than selection, of answers
* Expansion of computer-enabled tasks."
</code></pre>
<p>Having been a part of several different graduate admission committees in psychology, the GRE was used as a screening tool to reduce the large number of applications to a more manageable number that could be more closely reviewed by the committee members. At some graduate programs there were ways around this such as having undergraduate professors contact members of the committee or graduate department directly or including reprints of articles, but in the absence of these efforts, many programs, at least in psychology, had predetermined GRE cutoffs.</p>
<p>Why do they keep changing the tests every few years? Who wants to buy a new prep book every year...geez......</p>
<p>Mackinaw -- That's interesting. Wonder what they're responding to -- or whether, as bluealien01 implies, they're only interested in selling new prep books and courses.</p>
<p>I always thought the GRE quantitative score was mainly a measurement of how long it had been since you took a math class. But, maybe that's because I've mercifully forgotten my own quantitative score.</p>
<p>My S took the GRE a couple years ago and had no choice but to take the computer version because he only had a couple days; he was unaware the deadline was so soon for entrance into a masters program at his same undergrad school. </p>
<p>I recall him complaining that his computer was malfunctioning during the math portion. He and the proctor figured out the problem but he said it cost him a good 10 minutes. Luckily he was accepted into the program. I know no one likes to hear excuses but there is no doubt his score was lower because of this.</p>
<p>mother of two--</p>
<p>There are GRE Subject Tests in Physics, Mathematics, Literature, etc. that are often required for Ph D/MA entrance</p>
<p>enjoyingthis - definately your son should take the GRE. While admissions aren't often affected by it, the GRE is required for fellowships like the one from NSF (for the sciences, a fellowship looks good on resume and means higher pay; for the humanities, a fellowship means not having to TA every semester for x years).</p>
<p>SAC-- I'm with you. If I had to take any kind of a math test at this point, I would fail utterly. Never having done grad school, I didn't have to face this. My son is the same in that he had almost perfect verbal SATs but something like 525 in Math. I'm just glad the GRE seems to have separate scores. He wants to do a language program where clearly the verbal outweighs the quanititative.</p>
<p>Depending on the program, the quantitative score may count for a lot or may be discounted altogether. So someone planning to do a Ph.D. in comparative literature need not worry unduly about bombing the quantitative portion. And someone planning to do Physics need not aim for a perfect score on the verbal portion (though my S, after producing physics homework that consisted almost entirely of strings of equations was told by the TF that even in Physics, some recourse to English is necessary :))</p>
<p>I was told by the admissions officers of some top schools I am applying to (Ph. D. in Political Science) that as a non native speaker who has never lived in the US my verbal score was irrelevant (they use the TOEFL for that), but that my score in the quantitative section had to be over 700-720 to have a shot. I hope that's true!! And a friend who is applying to Economics was told to aim for a 800 math. So apparently also in some social sciences the quantitative section is more relevant.</p>