<p>Mariana, you were given very good advice about the more quantitatively oriented social sciences (which is my own field of work). This is still no guarantee of admission (see my earlier post -- #24 -- about how grad schools look at applications) but the verbal section of GRE is largely overlooked for non-native speakers of English. However, we have also learned to be cautious about assuming that a high TOEFL assures adequate comprehension or speaking ability in English, especially in societies in which access to English language media is more limited at the mass level.</p>
<p>Thanks a lot! Mackinaw, I really appreciate your response because it makes me less nervious. I am not worried about my level of English (my TOEFL score is almost perfect, but as you said that doesn't necessarily mean I can understand English perfectly) and I live in Mexico City, where the access to English language media is massive, really massive, specially on TV. I have a lot of research experience, and so on and I had already looked at your previous message. I am aware that it is extremely hard to be accepted, but I think that applying is the first step, and it's worth the shot. I was just trying to say that also for social sciences math in the GRE seems to be more important than the verbal part, not only for exact sciences. But thanks a lot, again.</p>
<p>You also get quirky faculty opinions on what's important in graduate admissions. I used to sit on a journalism grad school committee. Most of us looked with most interest at grades, the writing samples, and for some evidence that the student really knew what the field was about (through classwork, internships, or experience in campus media.) But, one professor insisted the quantitative GRE was what he considered most heavily because for him it seemed to be related to intelligence. He was just as quirky in the classroom.</p>
<p>Mariana -- Your English seems as perfect as your TOEFL score.</p>
<p>Thanks sac</p>
<p>I don't think anyone answered my question, so I'll try again. If emeralkitty's daughter has to use a calculator for everything with math and her disability forms say that but the GRE people don't let her use one can she sue (and win) for discrimination against learning disabled people?</p>
<p>I am not big on suing. I would rather put my energy into getting the accomodations
I have found that some businesses ( our school district for example) figures that it is cheaper to not give legal accomodations to many students that have IEPS and let the ones who get that far sue. I could have done that as my younger daughter never did have an IEP that was followed, but I wanted to put my time and energy into trying to get outside help for her, not pursue a court case ( which is what the school district counts on).
There is a procedure to obtain accomodations for the GRE.
It involves getting updated testing and diagnosis and submitting results to College board. If they denied the accomodation, I probably would just write a letter reminding them of the Civil Rights act, but I am not going to assume that they will deny it. IT would be very bad publicity for them.</p>
<p>Accomodation for a disability would not be indicated for a normed diagnostic test as allowing such accomodation makes it difficult to determine the validity of the obtained scores. Since the GRE is considered to be diagnostic in the sense that it purports to predict graduate school performance, how could you reliably compare scores obtained by those students doing calculations in their head and those using a calculator? You could not. I do not think the Civil Rights Act or the ADA (American Disabilities Act) is relevant for this type of test. Even if the GRE allows this accomodation, scores obtained through accomodation of any type will be so noted to the reviewing graduate schools. How they would interpret such scores is anybody's guess. I would be more inclined to contact the specific graudate programs that will be applied to and request guidance from them regarding how they would view this issue.</p>
<p>the student would be using accomodations such as a scribe, a calculator, different paper, untimed tests, a tape recorder and other accomodations in college. If the GRE is to determine if they will be successful in college, then the test should be given using the same accomodations that will be available in college.
The ETS does allow accomodations for the GRE, however even if they were given for the SAT/ACT and for the undergrad study, the evaluation needs to be updated for the GRE.
Its likely it wont really be a problem, although I do think it is interesting that the SAT requires a calculator to be used for some portions of the test, but the GRE forbids it for most.</p>
<p>Just because a student might use an accomodation in the college classroom, it does not follow that a test designed to predict graduate school performance should allow accomodations. As stated before, scores obtained using such accomodations can not be reliably compared to scores obtained using the standardized methods. Luckily, GRE scores carry less weight in the graduate admission process than the SAT's do in the college admission process so other aspects of the students record and performance will come into play. Does anyone know whether the LSAT and the MEDCAT (I think that is the right acronym for the medical admissions test) offer accomodations?</p>
<p>If a test is designed to predict graduate school performance and if accomodations will be provided during graduate school, how can the test not allow accomodations?
A scribe and a calculator will not do the work for you if you don't know how to do it, but not having any accomodations will not give an accurate picture of the students ability.
GREs, MCAT and LSAT all offer accomodations for those who qualify for them.
<a href="http://www.washington.edu/doit/Stem/articles?161%5B/url%5D">http://www.washington.edu/doit/Stem/articles?161</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.ets.org/disability/tips/html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ets.org/disability/tips/html</a></p>
<p>"not having any accomodations will not give an accurate picture of the students ability". I would argue that standard procedures do give an accurate comparison of the abilities that the test measures---the ability to answer a large number of vocabulary and basic math questions in a relatively short period of time. Take away the time constraints and you remove an aspect of the abilities that the test measures and makes it difficult to make comparisons among students based on the test. If you want to argue that the test may not be a valid indicator of success in graduate school I think you would have a pretty strong case, but changing standard administration practices for a subgroup of students can violate the integrity of the test. It is why IQ tests are given without accomodations: We want to know how the person compares to the normative sample. We provide accomodations in the classroom so the person can perform at the highest level possible without the debilitating impact of a disability. Modifying the assessment device often leaves you with data which is difficult if not impossible to interpret. unless you have a normative sample who have all taken the test with these modifications. to my knowledge GRE's do not have such a normative sample.</p>
<p>Obviously I am not a psych and don't know as much about testing as you do, but the IQ tests seem different as they are individually administered, and seem to get a more accurate result than a group administered test.
My daughter has been tested with an IQ test and it took hours because as you know they keep going until they fail, but the scoring was confusing because when it said things like she answered like a 32 yr old, it really meant she interpreted that passage the way a 32 yr old might not that she had the intellect of someone who was 32. ( or is that what it means? it is late for me, and I am confuzled)
For the SAT she did have extended testing but she didn't need it, she did fairly well, but she also was required to use a calculator for the math problems.
If she did not have the calculator I suspect she may have stumbled at the very beginning problems ( I really don't know how the SAT test is arranged I have never taken it, but I imagine the easier questions are first?) as she has a computational disability and has great difficulty with simple math facts although she has taken math through calculus at the college level.
She also took the SAT before they began the practice of not identifying tests where the student had accomodations. I didn't have a problem with that and actually prefer it.
I think that it is appropriate for tests to be identified where the testee had accomodations, partly because if the college has difficulty with 504 students you want to know that up front as well as students who really don't have a learning disability and don't need the extra time may request 504 accomodations if they know that will not be noted on their test.
She is attending Reed, which has a very strong showing in graduate schools, and she has had to ask for few accomodations at school because like her high school , procedures to include different styles of learning are already part of the curriculum.
However other schools are not as accomodating and it is a concern because as the workforce is required to have more and more education, the laws that interpret how the education will be administered are becoming more restrictive, ( not to mention that autism and other differences are on the rise)</p>
<p>Obviously your daughter has more than compensated for her computational disability if she is taking college level calculus at a fine place like Reed. My major concern during our discussion is that one never knows how graduate admission committees will interpret GRE scores that are asterisked showing accomodations were made. Because of this, they may make decisions about your daughter's abilities that are based more on their perception of disability accomodations than a fair and balanced assessment of her performance on the GRE. My first inclination would be to contact prospective graduate programs and get their sense of this issue. If she is applying to humanities based grad programs, this will probably not be a big issue, but social science and science programs might have some very specific and helpful information to share with her about how they would want her to proceed in taking the GRE. Since she did not need the accomodation for the SAT she may not need it for the GRE. Good luck to her and you in her search.</p>
<p>In reality, it's likely to work something like this. The student applies to our program with a degree at Reed, advanced courses in many areas including math, strong letters of recommendation, advanced research achievements including a senior thesis, a statement of purpose that clearly shows her interests and understanding of her career and why she wants to attend our program. We look at the transcript, we look at the GRE's and frankly we don't give a damn if there's an asterisk on the latter.</p>
<p>I should have known. The UW where my daughter is thinking of attending doesn't even require the GRE for their masters in education program.
:)</p>
<p>As someone who is both ADD and is dyslexic, I say quit being a victim and just take the test. I took the SAT's, got an 810 (ouch). Made it into a good "B" college, graduated and took the GRE's (1993), I scored an 1150, went to grad school for chemistry and graduated with my MS, did OK. Never once did I ask for an extra second on a test, quiz or oral. I figured that I needed to adapt, learn to take it on the chin, lick my wounds and adapt. Guess what, that was good advice because out here in the "real world", I don't get deadline extentions for having a learning disability. My boss would in all likeleyhood, keel over laughing as she escorted me to the door if I even tried to play that card. Just my 2 cents. And NO, I have never taken medication for the condition either.</p>