<p>My D has decided she would rather not look at schools with a large Greek presence. Her choice. We ran the CB search for schools with no Greeks and there are plenty of schools. What are your opinions on the % of students that are Greek before it impacts the campus culture. For example Dickinson and Susquehanna have 24/20% sorority members while Emerson and Marist it is 3%. Is it possible to define this by the % of students involved or is there more to it?
I am aware that since 1st year students generally are not counted 20-30% of all students = a large % of eligible students.</p>
<p>Yes. I would think it's possible to use percentages as at least a rough cut. However, it would take correlating percentages against known frat schools. For example, 30% is going to be a very greek dominated social scene. Just off the top of my head, I'm guess that 10% might be a good dividing line.</p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that there are some euphimisms for a frat-style social scene such as "eating clubs". Also, some schools that claim not to have frats actually do have an active frat scene ("off-campus").</p>
<p>At the end of the day, there's still no subsitute for exploring campus cultures on a school by school basis.</p>
<p>I don't like frats, and have expressed that opinion before.</p>
<p>HOWEVER, and this may seem counterintuitive, having a 25-30% frat school, IF the other demographics of the school are the same, might in fact make the school more rather than less attractive for the non-"frat type", non-drinking, non-party animal. That is because those types have self-selected themselves into the frat/sorority scene, leaving the rest of the campus for others.</p>
<p>I have seen some "non-frat" LACs, including my alma mater, and, frankly, at this point, providing a separate space for the party animals might be a distinct advantage to those who are not.</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>I agree with the theory. In fact, many people at my daughter's school support the presence of two small non-residential frats (6% of male students) for specifically this reason: it gets a big chunk of the the drinking scene out of the dorms.</p>
<p>However, I would perhaps question your percentages. For example, two of the biggest frat schools in the country are Dartmouth and Vanderbilt. They are only 37% and 34% respectively.</p>
<p>UPenn is also considered to have a major frat presence at only 24% frats.</p>
<p>Maybe a reasonable guide might be three categories: under 20%, 20% to 30% (better do your research), and 30+%.</p>
<p>Even then, you still have to look at each school's culture. As you point out, there are some schools with no official frats that could serve as the backdrop for Animal House II on any given Thursday night.</p>
<p>It's a tough thing to research because the tour guides at even the most hard-core frat school in the country (say Washington & Lee at 83% frat membership) will stand there and say, "oh yes, there are plenty of social opportunites for [GD]Independents."</p>
<p>Too bad consumers don't force USNEWS to include each schools most recent surveyed binge drinking rate. Talk about reshuffling some rankings and ruffling some feathers!</p>
<p>I'm not sure if there's an objective metric that defines "frat dominated social scene." Students at urban universities have social options beyond the campus. Academic and Community Service Fraternities aren't usually a drag on campus social life. And as Mini points out, a 25-30% frat school may simply self-select out the party animals. [Amusing aside: A frat boy at D's university called 911 this past Spring after burning his lips and cheek blowing fireballs with Everclear.]</p>
<p>tom1944,
One other factor to look is how the housing situation works, at some schools I visited many chapters didn't have houses and met in common rooms on campus so they were more like a club than completely separate from the rest of campus. They might have part of a dorm floor but they weren't really isolated from everyone else which I think would have a different impact from greek chapters all living in houses.
At my school, Case Western, about 30% of campus is greek but the general opinion is that there is only a small fraction of the partying and other stereotypical greek activities that goes on at nearby state schools where the greek percentage is 10-15%. I'd estimate that around half of the greeks on campus don't live in house or their chapter's housing is within a residence hall. I found visiting campuses & doing overnights to be really helpful in figuring out what student life is like. Good luck</p>
<p>Even at schools with relatively low Greek participation, the kids who pledge a GLO are the kids who will be taking the leadership roles of the campus.</p>
<p>I think it might be better to look for the other things your daughter wants in a school, then see if schools that fit that criterea have a big greek presence by asking about them specifically. My school (Carnegie Mellon) is something like 20% Greek, but it's much less than 20% of the students in computer science/engineering, and much more in the humanities. Many of the greek don't live in the houses, and one of the frats is a co-ed service frat that doesn't party, so while there's many Greek students involved in campus government etc., the school isn't at all a party school.</p>
<p>Another indicator is whether the greeks are on campus or off. At Northwestern, for instance, the best located housing is the greek houses, right on the edge of the central campus. Dorms are further away. You can bet this has an impact on campus life.</p>
<p>Of course.</p>
<p>Turnout and interest in campus elections is so low that any organized group can control the outcome of elections. For example, if the African American students association were 25% or more of the student body, voting as a bloc would allow them to control every election, too.</p>
<p>Your idea isn't counterintuitive, mini.</p>
<p>That's exactly how it worked at my college (about 25% Greek). </p>
<p>The "animal house" element that seemed to dominate the dorms the first year vanished thereafter because most of the critters had joined the Greek houses. The quality of life improved greatly with their departure.</p>
<p>It's too bad they weren't allowed to pledge even earlier.</p>
<p>Actually I went to Carnegie Mellon. When I was there, Greeks were about 15% of the total student population. In terms of my sorority specifically, we had more girls in CIT and MCS more than in HSS and CFA. The fraternities only had a token few from CFA and the rest were from all the other schools.</p>
<p>CMU is a small school. My dorm was across from the fraternities, the sororities were near other dorms. Everything was in easy proximity for walking (parking was and is a different story).</p>
<p>There wasn't a voting bloc to elect a Greek to be on student council. Some (petty) kids would rather vote for an independent than a member of a rival house.On the contrary, kids who go Greek tend to be more involved (hence joining a social org).</p>
<p>I don't think you can really find a clear dividing line on the impact that a certain % of greeks will make on a campus. Greek life is one of the most highly variable things from campus to campus. At some schools, like my alma mater (a state school), the 16% of greeks literally ran the campus - all the major leadership positions on campus were held by greeks. I mean, held overwhelming majorities of exec positions in student government, college specific advisory board, senior honoraries, etc., etc., with the only exception being the campus newspaper. But I'd say that independents didn't necessarily suffer from a social standpoint. People who want to party find parties.</p>
<p>That said, there are other places where Greeks only have an impact on the social scene and are not a presence in campus activities. It's really impossible to figure out how Greeks are going to impact campus just by looking at the numbers. </p>
<p>So the bottom line is this is something that you're really going to have to research for each school if your daughter is really that anti-greek. The other thing I'd say is that she should keep an open mind about greek life. I know plenty of people at plenty of different schools (from small LAC's to large state schools) who never thought they would be in a fraternity or sorority but it ended up being a very important of their college career.</p>
<p>Is it true that if you are not in a frat, you can't go to their parties?</p>
<p>At my D's school which is 50/50 M/F all students are invited to all parties. </p>
<p>At my school and my bio. brother's school both of which had a much more skewed M'F ratio, women were always invited to everything. Men not eligible for rush had to be on a guest list. This wasn't a big deal. If my then bf/f (now H) came to visit from his college, I always got him on a fraternity party list because I knew a brother.</p>
<p>Will someone with Greek life experience explain something to me? What is the point of all the inane, time-wasting "chores" done to pledges. My son was telling me about his roommate and some other friends who are pledging. They have to be dd's (designated drivers--not dear daughters) just about every night and carry around "brothers" in their own personal cars, with their own gas, often having people throwing-up in the car. Another thing they have to do is go out in the middle of the night to pick up food if a brother is hungry. Most of son's friends had grades suffer a good deal during pledge time as the pledge activities are not restricted to weekend only nights. I just don't understand the point of these things. Son said there are actually a couple frats he would be interested in, but there is no way he was going to waste time being a slave.</p>
<p>weenie, it depends on the school. D was an anti-sorority girl who ended up at a school with a substantial Greek presence. Throughout the process we were told that Greek Life was not required to be social at Rhodes (no residential houses) . She and several quickly made friends went through rush and some liked the scene , some didn't. D did. </p>
<p>She pledged and so far (he, he) is enjoying it. We were told it loses its luster year two and three for some girls who then become less active. Alchohol? Sure it's been present but D says its not nearly as dangerous as high school parties (buses from campus, designated sober kids). At this time D is a tee-totaler jock (she doesn't even drink carbonated beverages). I expect at some point that will change but she says many upperclassman in the sorority share her abstinence. </p>
<p>I'd say Rhodes scene is less exclusive than many I've been around. For my kid it was that exclusivity part that bugged her. She didn't feel that it was that way , so she joined. Simple as that. The fact that a kid is anti now doesn't mean that she will stay that way. Keep an open mind is always good advice.</p>
<p>I go to a school with a 30% greek, and I dont feel that our campus is dominated by greek life. I would not go to an absolutely non-greek school b/c you want to have the option of joining a greek org. Though you might not want to rush now, you might later.</p>
<p>I ended up going greek, though I am an extremely independent person.</p>
<p>mkm56 - I know of guys who have pledged frats and had to do menial stuff like that...from what I have heard, it is believed that it gives the boys a sense of "bonding" b/c they all had to go through the same experience. It is also a way to weed out those that dont really want to be in the frat. </p>
<p>weenie - many frat parties are open to non-greek members, but there are also events like formals that are invitation only.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What is the point of all the inane, time-wasting "chores" done to pledges.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's called "hazing". </p>
<p>Of course, if you ask, the frat boys all smile like Eddie Haskell and say, "Gee, we don't do hazing in our fraternity."</p>
<p>A good many of the alcohol poisoning deaths you read about each year are the direct result of hazing practices.</p>
<p>Pledging varies from place to place. As with everything from parties to house size to risk issues to exec board positions, what is commonplace on one campus can be completely unheard of on another. This includes hazing. Some campuses the hazing really is disasterous, dangerous, and detrimental to academic success.</p>
<p>Like the whole getting food thing is bizarre. But then again, my chapter house was literally less than 100 yards from 4 or 5 different fast food places. My chapter, everyone including active members has one night a semester in which they are assigned to be the designated driver (our dd program was only thursday/friday/saturday nights). To avoid issues with reimbursement and such, everyone had to pay for their own gas with the general assumption that you were going to be using the service fairly often during the year, you needed to help out others and take your turn.</p>
<p>As for the "chores" the intent is to give the pledges some sort of way to show that they do want to be a part of the chapter. Our pledges (and my little brother is a current pledge in the chapter I graduated from) have to learn the history and lore, as well as songs of the fraternity, they have to interview the actives to get to know most of the guys in the house. They are also required to have 12 documented study hours a week, turn in grade reports from their profs 3 times during the semester, take part in intramural sports, join two non-chapter related organizations on campus, and earn at least a 2.7 GPA in their pledge semester to initiate. The entire point is for them to become familiar with the organization they are about to join, and for the active chapter to judge their dedication and desire to join the chapter. Pledges who slack off are going to become lackluster members who we don't want to be associated with.</p>
<p>Now again, that's just my chapter of my organization, and the more dramatic and dangerous hazing that takes place at other places is certainly different. But the common refrains from the chapters that insist on hazing is that it does two things: it binds pledge classes together and it separates out those members who aren't willing to work to obtain membership. In a sense the intent is the same as with a positive pledge semester, which of course doesn't make a negative pledge program right...</p>
<p>I want to make certain that no one is confused - I do NOT condone negative pledge programs that are dangerous or offensive, I'm just offering one explanation to a question posed, and doing so at the best of my ability to shed light on what is the typical thought process. </p>
<p>I do however firmly believe that a pledge semester is absolutely vital, and that a well thought out, well conceived positive program makes a chapter and its members better. To do away with any sort of trial period in my mind is disasterous for all involved.</p>