" I had a friend at Cornell at the same time I was in college (so 20+ years ago) who said there easbt any hazing in her sorority, and maybe there easbt. She also said part of the initiatingor one of the fraternities involved breaking a finger."
Yes, there would be a whole pledge class of, say, 30 guys at a fraternity, all with broken fingers, and no one would notice or draw a connection. @@
Iâm trying to joke about it, and I am a proud GDI for life. (See post history, supra.) But every time this topic shows up on CC, I end up seeing posts from folks who apparently are willing to assume my kid is a probable felon because he opted to pledge.
First of all, at almost every school that has sororities, some women are excluded from all houses. Not many, but some. Letâs also be clear that many women who want to be in house X are excluded from it. Because house X is exclusive. It excludes them.
âI realize itâs a bit of human nature to sort people out, but this post really made me queasy. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/13796574/#Comment_13796574 And Tufts is not a campus that has a strong Greek life component.â
So this guy thinks that way. So what?
My son called on his fraternity brothers to show up en mass to fill the seats of an auditorium. The low SES, mostly minority, tenth grade high school English class he (and ten other college students in a high level English class) had mentored to create an hour long program really needed to see a full house of people to clap and cheer at their efforts.
There had been some worry among the high schoolers that their families would not come to the program, which was on campus in a theater. Most of those kids and their families had never set foot on the campus, which was a mile away from their high school.
The families mostly did come, and so did the fraternity brothers. It was standing room only.
It was wonderful to witness. (And several of the fraternity brothers took the class the next year.)
SomeOldGuy, I canât offer you much advice*, but itâs the nature of the beast. Itâs inevitable when you a group that insists on one truth with no desire to look at varying experiences. All I can do is urge your son and others that are in greek organizations to continue being exemplary members of their community. Remember your ideals. Remember what you pledged for. Stick your morals. Refuse to have your letters be tarnished by the actions of others, including your sisters and brothers.
*I assume you are much wiser due to the life experiences that I simply have not had yet and Iâm sure you already know this.
What Greek life needs is reform and lots of it.
We were saying it was an albatross in 1974.
Thereâs vast difference between people getting to know each other and naturally sorting themselves into compatible groups vs. having a school-sanctioned process whereby people formally seek admission to a group and are officially told they donât measure up/arenât good enough to be part of the desired organization, based onâwell, who knows. This is just an extension of elementary school playground behavior, and I canât comprehend how anyone thinks itâs valuable. Many colleges have either banned Greek life entirely or banished houses off-campus, and somehow their students manage to make close friends, attend social events, do good works, find success after graduation, etc. Amazing, right?
@alcibiade: Albatross was on sale at the Hollywood Bowl in 1982.
At least most colleges, especially the respectable/elite ones base their selection criteria on oneâs actual merits such as academic accomplishments, essays, ECs, etc.
The selection criteria for pledging is much more based on exceedingly subjective and sometimes shallow factors which favored upper/upper-middle class(membership dues and participation fees donât come cheap) extreme extroverts, those blessed genetically by great looks*, athletes, heavy drinkers, and rigid expectations of social conformity.
This additional exclusivity in a group on college campuses along with the behavior of the then pan-hellenic greek organizations was such my LACâs community opted to ban them along with other âsecretâ or organizations with selection based on social exclusivity back in the 1870âs. With exception of organizations selecting on basis of academic accomplishments like Phi Beta Kappa, student organizations must be open to all students who desire to join.
Moreover, my LAC bars membership in such organizations even if off-campus as a condition of matriculation and continuing enrollment. While there are underground greek organizations off-campus, they tend to keep a low secretive profile** not only because the campus culture is vehemently anti-greek*** because if one was found to be a member, the college does have the power to expel him/her for being a fraternity/sorority member.
** I was invited to join one such fraternity. I declined.
*** Pan-hellenic organizations tended to be regarded by most on campus as bastions of mostly all-White bourgeois conservative establishment. Keep in mind the political overton window at my LAC was such âconservativeâ meant Green Party was considered too conservative by some when I attended.
I lean against the greek system, and if I had my own college it would not include greeks. But I have also seen there are certain benefits for some people, so itâs not entirely black and white.
But PG (and Rhandco), I think your posts miss the point. Sure there is exclusion, as well as segregation in life and in society, but sororities and fraternities institutionalize it, and indeed further it. It is that aspect of greek life that is not helpful to society. I have seen that even without frats and sororities kids will form clubs and sports teams that act an awful lot like fraternities or sororities. But even the fact that it is less formalized makes it bit less divisive.
So what about that Tuftsâ kid post? Itâs that that type of thinking is actively fostered by the nature of the greek system, and is entirely normal. Itâs not just that kid. Outside the greek system, those types of judgments seem petty and bigoted.
However, highly selective colleges presumably adjust their admission criteria to tilt the playing field such that they will get the desired SES background mix (at many such schools, it looks like half of the students being no-financial-aid (i.e. top 2-3% family income) is the target). This does not require them to be explicitly need-aware (most are need-blind), but criteria like being impressed with ECs that are mainly available to those from wealthy families, emphasizing test scores, and having numerous application items like recommendations and subject tests and CSS Profile that first generation to college and low income students and their counselors are less likely to be aware of can effectively limit the number of admits from lower and middle income families.
Generalize much?
Even within given campus, different organizations will have their own criteria.
The experience of sorority girl at big southern school is very different from that at small non-southern school.
Just for fun, I google image searched my Dâs sorority nationwide. Oddly enough they are not all skinny blue eyed, bleached blondes.
I wasnât in a fraternity, and I had people show up to support me in various performances (I didnât play any sports). I also showed up to support friends in their performances, for which none of their brothers showed up. Not saying that one is better than the other, but surprisingly enough, itâs possible to make good friends outside of greek life.
Sounds like the Ivy League!
AndâŠsports teams. AndâŠstudent government. AndâŠsix kids who want to dorm in a suite that holds fourâŠ
@trisherella: Yes, but there really isnât any way to âinformallyâ exclude people from any of those things. Either you have an open admission university or baseball team or acapella group, or you have to sort people on the basis of perceived merit in relevant criteria.
In pretty much every non-romantic social situation that doesnât involve a Greek organization, friendship groups develop organically and âexclusion,â to the extent that that is the appropriate term, need not be so blatant or absolute. Allowing a relationship to taper off or not following up on an overture of friendship is a lot more oblique than a formal statement that you have been deemed unworthy to get to know further.
âThe selection criteria for pledging is much more based on exceedingly subjective and sometimes shallow factors which favored upper/upper-middle class(membership dues and participation fees donât come cheap) extreme extroverts, those blessed genetically by great looks*, athletes, heavy drinkers, and rigid expectations of social conformity.â
No, you just kind of made that up. I plead guilty to upper middle class and reasonably good-looking, but Iâm heavily introverted, not athletic in the least, not a drinker, and yet I did well in rush, got my first choice house and had a great experience. As for ârigid expectations of social conformity,â itâs fascinating how we had both card-carrying Republicans and uber-progressive-liberal Democrats, nerdy engineers and creative theater-types.
CF believed that all / most sorority girls are skinny little bleached blonde celery-munching size 0 overly made-up, head-to-toe-designer clad girls and was âsurprisedâ to find a picture of a Panhel that I linked her to that showed normal looking girls with everyday casual clothing and a diversity of ethnic backgrounds and body types. Likewise, you would do well to stop thinking in stereotypes. You donât like when itâs applied against you, so donât do it to others.
âNot saying that one is better than the other, but surprisingly enough, itâs possible to make good friends outside of greek life.â
No one has ever said that one couldnât make good friends outside of Greek life, so why the strawman?
âAllowing a relationship to taper off or not following up on an overture of friendship is a lot more oblique than a formal statement that you have been deemed unworthy to get to know further.â
Itâs exactly the same thing as ânot following up on an overture of friendship.â And itâs not deeming someone âunworthy.â I donât like some people; Iâm not going to be mean, but Iâm not going to go out of my way to invite them to my lunch table. Some people donât like me, and they arenât going to invite me to their lunch table. As long as everyone is polite and cordial, thatâs how it all goes.
I think some of you are unknowledgeable enough that you assume that âdidnât invite X backâ means âIâm going to cackle about her all the livelong day.â
"Pan-hellenic organizations tended to be regarded by most on campus as bastions of mostly all-White bourgeois conservative establishment. "
Sounds like a lot of mandated social conformity, that you had to regard Greek organizations as a certain way or else you felt social wrath.
Thereâs nothing more dreary than the conformity of all of you so-called non-conformists.