When my kid has a dance recital at school, I would see most girls from her sorority and her guy friends from fraternities bringing their brothers to show support. Now, without the Greek system at her school or if she didn’t join a sorority, would she have a lot of friends show up at her recital? Probably, because she is a likable person. On the other hand, would she party just as much without being part of Greek life? Probably, because she is social and she is a likable person. Would she have a different circle of friends if there was no Greek life at her school? Probably not. She would have socialized with similar kind of people. Yes, both of my girls’ friends are generally fairly attractive, but they are also very nice.
I am not a joiner. I didn’t even like girl scout because there were too many requirements. At the same time, I think people should be able to form any kind of associations they want, may it be a very exclusive country club, single sex club, private dining club…Just because it is there, I don’t need to join and I don’t feel excluded because I am not part of it.
There is no amount of bashing Greek life that is going to make it go away. By dismantling the system is also not going to solve the drinking/drug/sex issues our students face today. The reason drinking has become more dangerous is due to binge drinking, and binge drinking came about because of older drinking age. When I was in college, I drank when I went out, but I never felt the need to binge drink so I could have a buzz to last me through the night, and I also didn’t have to go to some isolated (dangerous) place to drink either.
I don’t know why some people care so much about whether the Greek system exists or not, especially parents who are not going to college. Most of the fear of the Greek system is based on ignorance or a strange desire to destroy everything in society that creates a social hierarchy in their minds.
@alh - Although I disagree, I respect your opinion that Greek Life may not benefit campus as a whole. But do you really believe that all Greek houses are the same? Or that Greek organizations are, as one poster suggested, a place where the “worst elements on campus” self segregate? Unless the “worst elements” means students who have won Rhodes scholarships, Fulbright scholarships, invited to join Phi Beta Kappa, etc.
We can debate the relative merits of Greek organizations forever. There are some good arguments on both sides. I take issue with those who stereotype members of Greek organizations and attribute the actions of a few to the whole.
PG: I was already writing my response to that argument.
It is not just Southern sororities that are “bad.” After reading “Paying for the Party” we both know that some of the most egregious sorority rush behavior happens at a Midwestern university. We both read the blog that recounted experiences of a rush where almost 50% of rushees are rejected from houses.
Also, I’m not ever going to buy the individual houses can be all right and you can’t blame the whole group for a few bad apples argument. In the UVA threads, you argued National had the right to dictate rules to individual sororities and I agreed with you. These are not individual fiefdoms. They share a common government. They are parts of a whole. You aren’t allowed to disassociate yourself from the chapters of your group that you don’t like. They are part of your group. They are your sisters, whether you like it or not.
Bay: I am not ignorant of the greek system. Quite the contrary.
I never said southern systems were worse, alh. I said they are different.
And no, I don’t feel any particular sisterhood with chapters other than my own. I have no bond to them other than a mild one. If one of them were found guilty of hazing, let’s say, it doesn’t reflect on me. And it needn’t precipitate a crisis of conscience in me over things I never did in the first place.
If a chapter of your sorority is found guilty of hazing, it reflects badly on the whole organization and National will take action. This is what happened to the fraternity accused of posting nude photos without consent. Those fraternity members at other colleges can argue this doesn’t reflect badly on them. They did nothing wrong. However, their fraternity name has had some very negative publicity. Their fraternity governing body has distanced themselves as far as possible from this group, because they don’t want to be associated with that behavior.
"the UVA threads, you argued National had the right to dictate rules to individual sororities and I agreed with you. These are not individual fiefdoms. "
These are two separate ideas. National may certainly revoke am individual charter, etc. That doesn’t change the fact that one chapter has virtually nothing to do with another on a campus 1000 miles away. It may reflect poorly on them but it’s not an actual reflection of them. Any more than bad behavior at Harvard incriminates Yale.
Harvard and Yale are not members of the same official organization. They did not go through the same initiation rites and make the same promises of brotherhood/sisterhood.
If you don’t feel part of a whole, why are you so vehemently defending greek life?
Pointedly not inviting people to parties or sit with you on a regular basis as you’ve indicated above wouldn’t be considered benign behavior in some situational contexts where such behavior is considered a form of exclusionism. In fact, some comments from bullying survivors under anti-bullying articles have cited this form of exclusionism as a form of bullying especially common among elementary and middle school girls.
It also isn’t something accepted by some communities. If a kid at my Catholic elementary school wanted to hold a birthday party and exclude some kids from his/her class for reasons other than an established history of serious anti-social or violent in behavior, the larger community would regard the parents who condoned the kid’s excluding some classmates as nasty snobs and treated accordingly and the Catholic School would have sanctions against the child for not “adhering to the community values of the school”.
I defend Greek life based on my and my family’s positive experiences. Being in a sorority enhanced my college experience. It was my individual chapter, however, that mattered to me. Tbh, I felt little affiliation toward National and a very limited connection to other chapters in my organization. I remember visiting a chapter of my sorority on another campus. Had I attended that school, I’m sure I would’ve chosen a different sorority. There was no commonality between that chapter and my chapter other than our Greek letters.
@alh - I know your family has a long tradition of being in the same house. Perhaps you feel a stronger allegiance to National as a result. Everyone in my family is Greek, but we are all in different houses. It is our experience in our house on our campus that is relevant to us.
Same here. My experience was very positive and I did not/do not represent a lot of the stereotypes of a sorority woman. I have posted this before- I was a middle class, small town, cc transfer when i pledged. Never experienced hazing. Enjoyed meeting new people both in and out of the sorority. I am a liberal feminist.
FWIW, the college I attended had some large social groups that were not greek. I remember at least 2 groups of guys and 2 groups of women. All of the groups had given themselves group names and had intramural sports teams. One group of guys and one group of women had blocks of rooms together in the dorms. The other two groups rented large houses near campus. Parties (by invitation only) were held in these houses. They functioned sort of like informal fraternities/sororities. You could not just decide that you were part of their group. So what is the difference between these sort of groups and fraternities and sororities? If you ban the greek system, you still have groups that function this way. People will still socialize/choose to live with whom they want to. Still choose to include/exclude others. So what does banning the greek system gain?
Overtheedge - I loved your post. This is exactly it. I felt some affiliation to national (because our national headquarters was literally two blocks away from our house, and one of my good friends had a part-time job there). But affiliation with other chapters in other colleges? Why on earth? How would I know what they were like? If they were the town losers / sluts / jocks / whatever, what did that have to do with my experience?
My house was one of the houses involved in the UCSB shooting last year. I’m sure they are nice girls, but I think the lifestyle portrayed on that campus seems very different from our chapter. We didn’t all run around posing in bikinis showing off stomach piercings And we weren’t all blonde, either.
Like overtheedge, it was our experience in our house on our campus that is relevant to us. Many of my girlfriends who have college age daughters either chose not to go Greek, or happened to choose a different house. Fine with us. There’s nothing to be sad over, no grand tradition that’s upset if one of them becomes a Chi O or whatever. If they have a nice experience on their campus, that’s all that counts. It’s not as though there are any real differences between the organizations, fundamentally. I’m quite sure that if I had pledged my second or third choice house instead, I’d have had an equally nice experience and made lifelong friends. Same difference. These are social clubs. They aren’t fundamental cores of identity.
There was an incident where another chapter of my sorority, someplace in NY State, was cited for hazing. Allegedly the girls were called names, berated for physical flaws, made to perform physical tasks to the point of bruising. Now that’s all completely ridiculous and that chapter should be cleaned up and / or the charter pulled - there’s no excuse for that. But why should I feel bad or guilty about that? We didn’t engage in that kind of stupid nonsense for an instant. I don’t have anything in common with girls who think that way or would treat their friends that way. None.
I just picked up my son from his school and as we were driving home, I made mention of the SAE n-word chant and asked - so, do any of the guys in your house ever say things like that? He was really offended that I even asked - he said, of course not, mom, you know we wouldn’t stand for it, he’d be out of there in a minute, and the very fact that you asked hurts my feelings because it suggests that you think I’d hang around with people like that or that we weren’t decent, upstanding guys. (I’m paraphrasing, but that’s the gist.)
I think I feel kind of like how good, decent black people feel when they turn on the news and see black faces associated with crimes. Why should the good be tarred with the brush of the bad?
I have never said there weren’t advantages to being part of a greek organization or that there weren’t lovely people in greek organizations. Everyone in my family is a lovely person. (okay - maybe not me, but certainly everyone else)
I think greek organizations as a whole disadvantage college campuses and communities as a whole. That is my opinion as a non-ignorant and not clueless reader and poster on this board.
I don’t care at all for this discussion as to the right kind of sorority girl. I like the barbie blonde, thin, pierced naval, bikini wearing girls who dazzle the boys. I find them adorable. I find their opposites adorable as well. They are all my sisters. I take this idea of sorority sisterhood pretty seriously, even though I’m advocating for dismantling the sorority system to create a broader based, more inclusive idea of sisterhood.
ETA: It must be clear I feel very little sorority allegiance at all. But I do understand each chapter is part of a national organization and all the groups make up greek life. The individual groups matter in the larger scheme. It’s a question of whether greek life, as a whole, is a positive or negative force. I think that was the OP. Arguing your individual experience doesn’t seem to me really addressing the big picture, if your individual experience isn’t representative.
Comparing some people’s reservations or dislike for the Greek system of fraternities and sororities to the hundreds of years of discrimination, prejudice, struggles and more that minorities in this country have faced is ridiculous. Those in fraternities and sororities chose to belong to their exclusive clubs. They weren’t born into them. Those in fraternities and sororities choose to remain in them and identify with them. People in fraternities and sororities don’t face unfair legal persecution. They don’t get followed around stores. They can walk down streets in nice neighborhoods without arousing suspicion, etc. It’s beyond insulting to compare these issues.
A bit defensive, aren’t we considering some of your recent posts like the one above or worse, comparing racist stereotyping with those for members of a voluntary organization they VOLUNTARILY AND EAGERLY JOINED.
Interesting how in doing so, you’re actually demonstrating the veracity of some of the Pan-hellenic greek organizational member stereotypes yourself…
The costs benefits are relative to your own history, priorities/value system and experience. That said, I personally find them to be a relic that is that tethered to nostalgic notions of both a time and didactic long passed. In my own guesstimation, which I don’t solicit or make an attempt to convince other parties, it is hard to make trade offs on systemic misogynistic behavior coupled with interludes of racism, against the need for collegial camaraderie and business connections. Over simplified-yes, but, that’s how I see it…
And we weren’t all blonde, either.