Obviously no. But, that is a rather simplistic way to answer the question–because my son would not ever partake of such behavior. Don’t you think every single parent said that same platitude during the sentence hearing for sexual assualt? Societies change, and slowly, but surely, organizations and institutions change…perhaps as an exercise of both moral inventory and priority, you pen a letter to a parent, from a fraternity, that explains despite the violent sexual assualt of your daughter or the death of your son, via forced binge drinking, we think these entities are worth more than your son or daughter, and as such, all things being, we need to perpetuate these organizations…
It is my personal opinion that exclusionary, purely social groups are incompatible with the mission of most colleges. I believe there is more than one reason to ban these groups.
I am arguing for their elimination even though this disadvantages my college age nieces, nephews, young cousins. I think the greater good is served by their elimination. And my relatives won’t be seriously disadvantaged. They will find other activities to pursue instead.
Do we have data showing there are fewer campus deaths, assaults, rapes, etc on campuses with no Greek life? I thought I remembered someone on this site saying it was all just as bad after Williams eliminated fraternities.
Well, therein lies the problems–the diversity of institution, from urban to rural, very small populations (e.g. Williams) versus mega state universities like UT-Austin, some serve disenfranchised others upper crust. I think, ultimately, this is a decision, each respective university has to consider, relative to their respective circumstances and mission.
Let’s set aside the “bad” things - hazing, racism, vandalism, etc. Just for the sake of argument right now. Let’s assume that all Greek houses on our new hypothetical campus are “good” - they’re nice people, they don’t tolerate nonsense, just serving the purpose of a club that isn’t affiliated with a particular interest (as is the debate club, the theater club, the tennis team, etc.). With me now?
It seems that many of you STILL want to eliminate them because you don’t like the idea of people getting together and forming clubs that aren’t based on a particular EC. That somehow you can eliminate friendship groups and the natural tendency of people to want to hang around with certain other people and not be interested in hanging around other people. And that’s where I have to ask …
The only reason I am “hurt” if the girls down the hall don’t ask me to go to the movies or out for coffee with them is if they have something I want in the first place. If they truly are a bunch of snobby superficial snots or whatever, well, then, whatever - I don’t want to be with them anyway so all’s well that ends well. What is the difference if it’s just the girls down the hall or they all happen to be wearing Greek letters?
Okay, we’ll get rid of the eating clubs at Princeton, the a capella groups at Yale, all the art clubs and club sports and political clubs because those are nothing but social, right? All students don’t enjoy them, and in fact many are down right exclusionary with the try outs and all. I think co-ed dorms are more dangerous than single sex, so let’s go back to separate housing.
Just pick schools where there are no Greeks and let others pick to socialize as they choose.
Harvard banned all single-sex social clubs, although they still exist off campus in privately-owned houses. Are things (drinking, assault etc) better there? I think I read Harvard was on the govt’s list of colleges being investigated for assault issues. Won’t all colleges have to ban unaffiliated off-campus social memberships to achieve your desired goals?
And don’t kid yourself - some of the co-ed eating clubs at Princeton make fraternity life look like crumpets and tea.
“Well, therein lies the problems–the diversity of institution, from urban to rural, very small populations (e.g. Williams) versus mega state universities like UT-Austin, some serve disenfranchised others upper crust. I think, ultimately, this is a decision, each respective university has to consider, relative to their respective circumstances and mission.”
WADR, isn’t that kind of obvious each university has to consider relative to its circumstances and mission?
I’m really sorry that some schools have stupid systems (Indiana’s arbitrary limit based on # girls who the house sleeps is not very nice at all, and results in a lot of unnecessary heartache) and I’m really sorry that some schools are still stuck in the antebellum past (like Alabama a year ago - OMG, the world would end if we pledged a black girl) and I’m really sorry that some fraternities do dumb, stupid things (OU, Penn State, etc.). Those need to be rooted out where they are, though. The “good” groups have nothing to do with this, and it’s as ludicrous to suggest that they be punished for it as it would be to suggest that marching bands be punished because FAMU marching band hazed.
@pizzagirl you really need to stop constantly making excuses for bad behavior. There are alternatives and sometimes they need to be explored. Rather than making excuses and say we should just live with it there are constructive suggestions that can make the college experience much more positive
@BoolaHI…You pay your taxes, correct? Do you feel good about perpetuating constant war and murder by your government? Why not that you oen a letter to the “collateral damage” of drone attacks, saying while tragic, we need to perpetuate large armed gangs known as “government”. Sound bizarre? so does your statement. Paying your taxes certainly says your ok with it, no? Maybe not, but you are FORCED to pay ( or go to jail). Nobody is forced to join a fraternity, or forced to haze or attend a fraternity event. If you are concerned about the safety of fraternities, teach your son or daughter to avoid them. Problem solved, no? Just like I wouldn’t go on vacation to Liberia if I were concerned about contracting Ebola. I have not yet heard of fraternities kidnapping women and raping them or kidnapping freshman and making them drink and die of alcohol poisoning. I do not no condone the behavior of SOME fraternities, just like I do not condone the behavior of some priests, politicians and movie stars. But that doesn’t mean to attack the entire institution.
I’ve absolutely never made excuses for bad behavior; how dare you insinuate that. I think the solution to bad behavior, however, is to punish those people who conducted and carried out said bad behavior – not to arbitrarily decide anyone who happens to be Greek should be punished.
Well young adults, then explore them. I think it’s a rather naive view to not be able to separate the good from the bad, or worse expect that some paternalistic/maternalistic body is going to solve your issues. Oh wait, that is what the national organization does.
Like the suffrage movement and civil rights, many large quarters openly defended turning over historical practices, which became unseemly juxtaposed against a more enlightened populous–this too, follows a similar path. You act as I present a singular and abberational perspective, what I’m merely repeating are many of the comments and reflections that have already been espoused from college presidents and their respective board of trustees.
Excuse me, but brutal rape and killing someone ever year, the past 45 years are past the ilk assigned to “stupid things”. Your tenor and comportment suggest we talking about TPing the deans house or throwing eggs at the presidents car (offense you can still be charged with it)–no rather this is, in some instances, entirely felonious acts. I’m sorry but you have ventured into the territory known as the historical and provincial apologist.
@alh - If I understand you correctly, you would ban Greek organizations because they don’t benefit the majority of students. What if they do benefit the majority of students? If the majority of students at a school are Greek, and the Greek system provides a social outlet open to all students of the school, would you feel the same?
If I were Greek, I would be very displeased about having my nationality attached to such degenerate nonsense.
@Overtheedge, students should learn how to socialize with one another without the (often unsaid) pretense of drinking, drugs, sexual interest, and so forth. If students feel the need to join a social club to make friends and that their lives are really that uninteresting that they need to “groupify” themselves for a sense of belonging somewhere, then they’re just pathetic.
Overtheedge: I would ban Greek organizations because I believe they have an overall negative impact on campus culture. They are groups of exclusion and I think campuses generally try to be places of inclusion. I don’t think it is legitimate to compare Greek organizations to a cappella groups, art clubs, debate, sports teams, etc. Those are groups which exist to explore similar interests, improve talent, entertain, etc. Inclusion is based on a skill set. I guess it would be possible to argue Greeks select for a social skill set, but I’m not impressed with that argument. I have no interest in the argument that it is our right to formally exclude others from our friends’ group, because otherwise we just informally exclude them.
I have argued on other threads that sororities could have random, lottery type admissions. If that happened, and there was a place for every young woman who wished to participate, I could support sororities. In other threads, I have posted positives of sorority participation.
I can’t support fraternities because I believe they contribute to rape culture… not my son’s group, but the overall system. I agree there is systemic misogyny. I agree on the racism and that they regularly accidentally kill pledges. What has been going on at fraternities for the last 40 years is no secret. Changes could have been made at any time. The status quo has too much support for much change to happen, imho. I don’t think there should be a right to belong to a group that contributes to a dangerous campus culture. I don’t want to fight for that right.
I could imagine a college with Greek organizations that are coed, random/lottery selection and open to everyone wishing to participate. I would be fine with that.
Dictators ban why they don’t like. Fortunately, we live in a semi-free society where organizations can choose to be and do what they wish, so long as they are abiding by the law. It really is that simple.
I am pretty sure colleges have the right to ban Greek organizations. We aren’t talking about the USA at large, or society at large.
I’m not interested in debate club. I just wanted to respond to overtheedge because she asked me that question already and I thought she was actually interested in knowing what I thought. I’ll keep reading but I’m done posting on this thread.
ETA: kollegeguy: some of us have been almost constantly involved in a discussion of rape culture, fraternities, etc for more than a year now. Some of us for longer than that. Some of us are getting worn out. It is great new posters show up.