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<p>Am I the only one on this board who thinks that by every important measure Grinnell is the hands down choice here?</p>
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<p>Nope. Unless the student visited it and said no way, I'm with you.</p>
<p>Jamimon, again, I appreciate what you're saying but still, no matter how broad your experience, you are again reporting strictly anecdotal evidence. It doesn't compare to the more objective data that we have out there, such as the U.S. News reputational survey, the Wall Street Journal's analysis of which undergraduate colleges are best represented in elite professional schools, or the National Science Foundation's analysis of which liberal arts colleges are most represented among Ph.Ds. In each of these categories both Carleton and Grinnell blow Kenyon out of the water. </p>
<p>In U.S. News, for example, both Carleton are Grinnell have reputational scores in the top ten, while Kenyon barely cracks the top 30; in the NSF survey both Carleton (third) and Grinnell (sixteenth) made the list of the top 20 liberal arts colleges while Kenyon did not; and in the Wall Street Journal's analysis of the top 50 undergraduate "feeder" schools to elite business, law, and medical schools only Grinnell made the list. </p>
<p>It's also noteworthy that Carleton and Grinnell have produced 32 Rhodes Scholars between them (18 from Carleton and 14 from Grinnell). This is a good proxy for academic reputation. Somehow I doubt Kenyon has a comparable record.</p>
<p>Even if your anecdotes were proven true and Kenyon shown in fact to be more highly represented on HR databases and in jobs in the financial and investment banking worlds than either Grinnell or Carleton, this again would say nothing about the relative academic reputations of each of these schools. It is merely another reflection of the different type of student body that Kenyon tends to attract over the other two schools -- the "preppy" type who is more likely to want to work on Wall Street than get a Ph.D.</p>
<p>In the final analysis, I don't think anyone disputes that Kenyon is a very good school whose graduates can get good jobs on Wall Street in disproportionate numbers. But this doesn't show that as an academic institution it has the same clout or reputation of either Carleton or Grinnell. Kenyon is simply not in the same league. I would not recommend that any student with the choice pay more for less when money is an issue.</p>
<p>I don't think the evidence is just anecdotal. There are reasons why the top prep school and the type of families who send their kids there have flocked to Kenyon. That does not mean you should take that piece of info and make your decision with it, but it is something I am pointing out. I think Grinnell and Carleton are truly top LACs who are rated right up there with AWS despite their location disadvantage, but the truth of the matter for Grinnell, anyways, is that they do not get the number of apps that Kenyon gets for some reason. Why? It is not as though Kenyon's location is so much better; it is in the middle of a bunch of cornfields in a state filled with excellent like colleges (Denision, the 3 Ws) </p>
<p>You will find these curiousities among a lot of the schools ranked in USN:&WR. Wellesley and Smith are top women's colleges, yet Barnard is the one who gets the most applicants and is the most selective. By every USN&WR critierion, the other schools trump it, but the NYC location and the Columbia connection wins out big time, you can see the numbers. So you can see with Kenyon.</p>
<p>I don't want to look like I am saying Kenyon is "better" than Grinnell. I am not saying any such thing. I would be happy to send a kid to Grinnell without hesitation. And the ratings have all the info you need to decide which is the better school on that basis. But I can also tell you the hidden gems at a number of schools much lower than Kenyon on the LAC scale to make them a better bet than Grinnel for a given student. As can a number of people who know the schools. I am simply sharing the info with you. There are also a number of drawbacks about the a school, say Kenyon, that you seem to feel I am pushing, that are not explicit in the ratings. Kenyon has frats, and for those who are the type who don't want to deal with the greek scene, that can be a major stumbling block, whether you belong or not, it does affect you at a school so isolated from other colleges and any city life. On the other hand, I have heard that Carleton, as high as it is in the ratings, without any frats, is having problems with drinking beyond any anecdotal basis, and that is without a tragic death occuring lately. Whether that info hits you one way or the other is irrelevant, as the info I am giving is for whoever, to ignore, investigate or use as they wish. And I do believe that I very clearly stated that if money is the issue, that there is no question that Kenyon is NOT worth the extra. I would equally questionif either C or G is worth the extra for anyone fortunate enough to get a much heftier package from K. The most important thing for the student, once the financial issues are addressed, is the school where he feels the most at home, likes, etc. And even then there may not be a big time winner in that choice. Most kids will do just as well at any of such choices. But the numbers clearly show that more kids apply to Kenyon over Grinnell for some reason, and you would expect that the two school would attract the same sort of kids initially, those receptive to a Midwestern LAC., and with Grinnell having the advantage of the ratings and sticker price. Now this is truly anecdotal, but I will tell you that just this year I know about a half dozen families in the Mid Atlantic area who checked out both schools, visited, looked at the ratings, and seriously considered these midwestern schools. For whatever reason, Grinnell was dropped from the list and Macalester and Kenyon were kept. All because the kids, all unrelated to each other, felt that way. Again this time I am aware I am giving you a very small number anecdotal example, but this had to be happening a number of times, for Kenyon to get so many more apps than Grinnell. </p>
<p>Again, I want to stress that I truly believe that Carleton, Grinnell, Kenyon and Macalester along with a number of other midwestern LACs are all fine schools. I do not dispute the data regarding the Rhodes, or the endowment, and I certainly do look at the surveys and rankings, have them all right here, as I share the info with a lot of kids. But the most value some can often give about a school is info outside of that so readily available. No one has to take the info to heart, sometimes it is just pure opinion and from a board like this from a poster who could be a bag lady.</p>
<p>Yes, Kenyon is a lot closer to the northeast than Iowa. Duh.</p>
<p>In keeping with Barrons' post above about location, we live near Philadelphia and my daughter (a public school student who does not know anyone else applying to Kenyon) read about all of the four schools being discussed here. She did not want to attend a school which was beyond a one-day driving range, and Kenyon is within this range. Perhaps other northeast students also feel this way about Kenyon compared to the other schools. My D thought Grinnell and Macalaster both sounded very interesting, and they were both within her range as far as her class rank, GPA, SATs, etc. I think Carleton would have been a reach for her. (Also, my daughter plans to study Chinese in college and Macalaster does not offer classes in Chinese, surprisingly, given its emphasis on internationalism. Students wishing to study Chinese must take classes abroad or at the University of Minnesota, so that took it off her list for reasons other than distance.) Another factor for my D is that she plans to pursue art as a minor, and Kenyon is considered strong in this field and also encourages non-majors to take art courses. For all of these various reasons, we did not visit Grinnell, Macalaster, or Carleton and she applied ED to Kenyon. All of the posts about Grinnell in recent days have made me regret somewhat that she did not consider it a little further, but, from everything I have read, a motivated student at Kenyon will be encouraged and able to delve as far into academics as he or she wishes. I still think it was the best choice for my D, all things considered, but, of course, other students will have other specific considerations in finding the best school for them.</p>
<p>MotherOfTwo, you took the words right out of my mouth: it's no surprise that Kenyon, being much closer to the Northeast than Grinnell or Carleton, attacts more applicants and hence might be "better known" in the Northeast. Numerous studies have shown that the vast majority of college students enroll in colleges within 500 miles from their homes, with only a few select schools having a majority of their students from further away. But, again, better known doesn't translate into better academic reputation and grad school placement. </p>
<p>I also question jamimom's suggestion that Kenyon gets significantly more applications than Grinnell. Historically that may have been the case, but not anymore: according to their websites, Grinnell got 3552 applications to the class of 2008 and accepted 42 percent of them, while Kenyon got 3807 applications and accepted 38 percent. (Grinnell's applications are up an additional 10 percent in 2005.) The average applicant to Grinnell is more highly qualified than Kenyon, with over a 1300 on the SAT, while the average enrolled applicant at Grinnell is also more qualified, with a 1380 on the SAT and/or over a 30 on the ACT. Kenyon's numbers, while strong, are significantly lower than these. It's certainly the case that Grinnell turns down more applicants who are also applying to Kenyon than the other way around.</p>
<p>And one last thing about Grinnell vs. Kenyon, which may be relevant to this discussion. Kenyon seems to have many students whose strength is much greater in the "verbal" side of things rather than the science/math side. If you look on USNews website at the SAT breakdowns of the two schools, Kenyon and Grinnell both have almost equal percentages of students scoring over 700 on the verbal SAT (well over 40% for both schools), but at Grinnell, a much larger percentage than at Kenyon also had very high math scores (40-something % vs. 20-something %). My daughter is much stronger in verbal than in math, so she fits Kenyon's profile in that regard. </p>
<p>Kenyon has strong science and math programs, but I think that comparatively fewer students are focusing on science and math there than at the other schools being compared here. On the other hand, Kenyon is very focused toward the creative side of things, emphasizing creative writing, drama, art, and music. It even has a fine arts requirement as part of its distribution requirements, which is not a very common requirement as far as I am aware. So, for a student who wants to combine the creative with the academic, Kenyon is perhaps a better choice.</p>
<p>Kenyon and Grinnell do not really differ that much in academics. It would be very hard to choose one over the other, as they each have several strong departments. I would actually say they are about even in stats, with the 09 class of Kenyon being the strongest ever.</p>
<p>Kenyon does have a very strong science core. After opening the new science buildings a few years ago we are attracting large amounts of very skilled scientists. We have top notch equipment and will be a rising force in undergraduate science. The Chinese department is also very good, with a number of Fulbright Scholars and participants in the top study abroad programs.</p>
<p>Drinking Culture:
College students in general drink lots of alcohol. Yes, there is a lot of drinking at Kenyon, but still much less than a state school. The recent death was the first from alcohol related causes in 25 years. Yes, the student was a pledge, but it has not been proven that he died due to a pledge related incident. Witness reports so far indicate he was attending a public party not related to the fraternity he was pledging. The suspected cause of death is hypothermia (abnormally cold weather that night); in short, a very sad incident that hopefully is never repeated.</p>
<p>I agree that Kenyon is not worth paying $60K more than Grinnell. The one condition is that the student feels they can fit in at Grinnell. If not, they are starting off bad and will be a transfer candidate before second semester.</p>
<p>MolBioAce06 - Are the stats for the Kenyon class of '09 available? I would be very interested in seeing them if they are. Thanks for your helpful info on the Parents Board.</p>
<p>I cannot see how Kenyon's stats for the class of 2009 are already available when the deadline for committing to the school (May 1) hasn't arrived yet. Kenyon very well may have had its strongest applicant pool ever this year, but what kind of class it translates into has yet to be determined. </p>
<p>As I said in an earlier post, Grinnell's 2009 applicant pool is also its strongest on record -- a 10 percent increase over last year's, which in turn was a 20 percent increase over the year before. Grinnell attributes its success to more aggressive marketing (particularly the 2003 Newsweek article proclaiming it the "best all around college in America") and the heavy use of merit scholarships. With an endowment that is only one-seventh of Grinnell's -- the largest endowment of any liberal arts college in the country --Kenyon will have trouble competing with Grinnell head-to-head for top applicants to both schools.</p>
<p>The class is not set yet as students have until May1st to decide(as you probably know) and then any waitlist students. There is some info on applicants though...</p>
<p>"The academic qualifications of this year's applicants have reached a new high. Mean combined SAT scores rose 23 points this year, registering a 50-point rise over the past five years."</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kenyon.edu/x23853.xml%5B/url%5D">http://www.kenyon.edu/x23853.xml</a></p>
<p>I realize that just because the applicants are better does not mean we will always have better students attending. However, that has been the case for the last few years and I see no reason for it to stop.</p>
<p>Class of 2008 info is here for anyone interested:
<a href="http://www.kenyon.edu/x1658.xml%5B/url%5D">http://www.kenyon.edu/x1658.xml</a></p>
<p>parent2009---</p>
<p>I can see by your posts that you are all about Grinnell. I think you need to get off your high horse and admit that Kenyon is comparable. I am not saying Kenyon is better, just that you need to show a little respect.</p>
<p>Kenyon gives fairly large amounts of merit aid. Also, we are one of the only schools that give need based grants on top of scholarships. I honestly think there are enough "top" applicants to cover both schools.</p>
<p>MolBioAce06,</p>
<p>This is an adult forum. If you would please go back and review all of my posts, you will see that I have always treated other posters respectfully, never once saying things like "get off your high horse." You will also see that I have confirmed time and again that Kenyon is a very good school indeed.</p>
<p>I simply disagree that Kenyon compare favorably to Grinnell in most quantifiable measures. In terms of cost, quality of the applicant pool, quality of the student body, survey-measured reputation, graduate school and professional school placement, endowment, and national reach of the student body, Grinnell is simply at a higher level -- and sometimes dramatically so. And all indications are that its upward trajectory will continue.</p>
<p>Grinnell also gives need and merit based grants to the same students. While both schools are generous, Grinnell can afford to be more generous -- Grinnell gives out more merit aid on average than does Kenyon, and this is on top of tuition and fees that are 25 percent lower than Kenyon's. Fewer than half of Kenyon students qualify for any need-based aid, and when you're talking about a $40,000 a year education (versus $32,000 at Grinnell) you're talking about a very wealthy student population indeed.</p>
<p>These are not the opinions of anyone on a "high horse" about Grinnell. These are facts. But I'm happy that you're happy at Kenyon. It's a very good school.</p>
<p>Well, I am an adult according to all current US laws; though, thankfully at 21 I am not a parent. Thus, I will leave the "adults" to their fun, but will be keeping an eye out for slander.</p>
<p>Apology accepted.</p>
<p>For what its worth, the total fee for Grinnell given on its website is actually $34,800 and for Kenyon itis $39,500.</p>
<p>Right. I was just about to correct that. Of course, neither price includes books and other incidentals, which puts Kenyon at well over $41,000. Still, I agree that the gap is a little closer than I misrepresented.</p>
<p>U.S. News' "best values" formula attempts to determine which schools offer the best value by relating a school's academic quality, as indicated by its U.S. News ranking, to the net cost of attendance for a student who receives the average level of financial aid given by the school. The higher the quality of the program and the lower the cost, the better the deal. Grinnell ranks seventh in the national liberal arts category. Kenyon does not appear at all on the list, which stops at number 40.</p>
<p>Note to MilBioAce06: Now HERE'S a slanderous view on the Grinnell versus Kenyon debate, from somebody who's really in a position to know:</p>
<p>I think her post was quite slanderous, as some of the comments she made about Kenyon had no basis in reality and were derogatory. After I gather my thoughts, I am going to write a comment in response to her post on that thread. Obviously, it is good her daughter visited both schools and found out which one suited her best, but she did not need to put down Kenyon in the way that she did.</p>
<p>Then u should read this:</p>
<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...ead.php?t=54564%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...ead.php?t=54564</a> </p>
<p>You know what, I think somebody is simply not telling the truth or trying to discredit a college.</p>