Growing Homogeneity Concerns Admissions Officials

Applying to College
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<p>The Denver Post outlines the woes of admissions officials at Colorado College, a fairly good liberals arts school, as homogeneity increases in their student body despite rising SAT scores and lowered admission rates.</p>

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Even though we're getting students on paper who are better on test scores, a lot of us miss what we used to call the quirky student," said Claire Garcia, an English professor. We're seeing fewer and fewer of those.

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The supply-and-demand curve is overwhelmingly in our favor," said Mark Hatch, vice president for enrollment and dean of admission. "On the other hand, that doesn't mean everything is right. We're probably taking fewer profound risks than we . . . had in previous years.

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Yet professors and students worry this soaring achievement could undermine the school's reputation as a basking place for critical thought.

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<p>This [url=<a href="http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_9459310%5Darticle%5B/url"&gt;http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_9459310]article[/url&lt;/a&gt;] is rather interesting in light of Wake Forest's recent decision to make the SAT/ACT optional.</p>

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<p>Link to the article?</p>

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<p>wake forest’s decision to drop SAT/ACT as an requirement, and making it optional, probably also has to do with its intention of raising the median SAT, maybe as a secondary incentive.</p>

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<p>Wake Forest is having everyone who matriculates send in their SAT information. We don’t know how it will affect their SAT averages until far into the future.</p>

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<p>[College</a> admissions miss “risks” - The Denver Post](<a href=“College admissions miss “risks” – The Denver Post”>College admissions miss “risks” – The Denver Post)</p>

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<p>It’s hard to take too many risks when you need to keep your test scores up and your admit rate low in order to protect your US News & World Reports ranking.</p>

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<p>That’s very true, although it seems this school values intellectual integrity and diversity more than the chains of rankings that bind so many schools.</p>

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<p>Carolyn,
As you surely know, SAT scores (7.5%) and admit rate (1.5%) represent but 9% of the total USNWR score. I personally don’t feel that this was the motivator for Wake Forest to drop their SAT requirement. If they were so rankings-driven, clearly the 25% weighting given to Peer Assessment scoring and Wake’s low PA score (3.5), ranking the school tied for 52nd, is far more damaging to their ranking.</p>

<p>I think Wake changed in order to expand their applicant pool and hopefully attract more students of color in the process. Wake’s enrollment of only 7% Pell grantees is tied for lowest among the USNWR Top 50 national universities. In addition, Wake’s combined numbers of Black, Asian, and Hispanic students is pathetic compared to other USNWR Top 30 colleges with only 14% of its students coming from those three groups. The next lowest college on this measure is Notre Dame at 21%.</p>

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<p>Although the USNWR score is not highly affected by the SAT scores, a college attracts students with higher SAT scores when its own scores are higher, for the most part. I know many, many parents who eyeball those scores. They want their kids to be with their peers or above. I know when I looked at the colleges that was a component. If the test scores go down for a college, the kids that will apply will tend to have lower scores. By making scores optional, schools often get the best of both worlds. They get the high test scores, but also leave the door open for kids who might otherwise not apply because the school’s scores are out of range in their opinion.</p>

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<p>I wish I knew how to get more people to look beyond the “prestige” factor in college applications. Who or what is driving that? Rankings in USNWR or college administrators/admissions or corporations or parents or students or all of the above? Is it an natural phenomenon in a hyper competitive society with ever dwindling “good” job opportunities? To me personally it is patently ridiculous to suggest that one school is superior to another. True, if one school has more admits with scores that are 200 points higher than another you can assume that the student body will be “brighter”, if your measurement of intelligence is based on SAT/ACT scores. If that is important to you, whatever. Does it really guarantee you will get a better job offer? Well, if you desire to work on WallStreet for Goldman Sachs or Merrill Lynch then it does indeed matter where you went to school. But even if you desire to become a doctor or lawyer does it really matter in the end? </p>

<p>What is the mission statement and presumed objective for colleges? Is it really just if they become elitist in admissions as some have suggested that the top 10 state universities have become? What does that say about other state schools in their area? They are red headed step children? Is that correct or righteous? </p>

<p>In a perfect world that I would imagine, we would have a healthy diversity of students with scores/grades/interests at every school…or at least the top name schools, without regard to race, ethnicity, etc.</p>

<p>Lots of schools have two or three tracks for admission: affirmative action, athletics and then the ubiquitous academics. Is it fair that the kids in the academic track have a higher standard of admission than the others? </p>

<p>Its really interesting to me that the College Board just last week stated that the SINGLE MOST EFFECTIVE MEASURE OF SUCCESS IN COLLEGE on their exams was the writing score…not the CR or Math scores. And oddly, the writing score is what the colleges have been universally ignoring for three years. But it makes perfect sense. If you write well, you will do well in college (all other things being equal including a student’s maturity.) </p>

<p>So I applaud Wake Forest IF they are genuine in dropping the SAT from their admissions requirements. But NOT if its a subterfuge for another affirmative action plan based SOLELY on race, or it its a subterfuge for another scheme to improve their USNWR rankings. </p>

<p>I also applaud the professor from Colorado College who said that the improved SAT scores have left them with less creative/quirky students…a bland student body of high stats kids. </p>

<p>Wouldnt they rather have a phenomenal artist or cellist or dramatic arts student? Or someone passionate about something OTHER than just engineering or computer science? </p>

<p>Just today I was reading this amazing story about a seed for the date palm trees that was found in Israel in 1965, dating back 2,000 years…which they planted just 3 years ago and is now growing…and may bear fruit in a year…and this fruit may have more than historic and religious significance but also medicinal significance. That all comes from an archeological dig in 1965. Isnt THAT amazing? What if some kid with a 1300 SAT was passionate about archeology, wouldnt Colorado College or Harvard or Yale be interested in them? Or Washington University in St. Louis…whom otherwise would not cut the admissions mustard based solely on raw SAT scores? </p>

<p>And finally (thanks for listening to my rant), I wonder (does hawkette know?) how many kids each year DONT go to college because they got rejected EVERYWHERE they applied…what are those stats? That is sort of a rhetorical question, because I suggest to you its a very small number…almost immeasurable its so small. That most kids do end up at college…maybe not their top 3 choices, but they do attend…and that is what we ought to be focusing upon, not the USNWR rankings and prestige factor of the big name (public or private schools). </p>

<p>Whether its Colby or Bates or Lawrence University or Grinnell or Indiana University…does it really matter? Even the mission statement of the college counseling services and infotainment sites like this, it seems to me should be focused less on “prestige” and “rankings” and more on spreading the wealth of knowledge..and maybe getting some of those kids with uber stats to take a look at some of the schools that arent in the top 25…like Colorado College or Connecticut College or God Forbid…even the University of Mississippi at Oxford, Miss…because they may bring something special to those schools and that kid may have a wonderful and enriching experience.</p>

<p>And maybe the Ivy’s and top 25 schools can admit kids who are quirky or who have a passion for archeology in the Holy Land..or whatever…without too much emphasis on SAT scores…and everyone benefits.</p>

<p>Yes, I know that alumnae associations get their noses all wrinkled up (or clothing in a wad) when you suggest to them SAT scores dont really matter and neither does “rankings” in USNWR. </p>

<p>A kid who is a superb cellist with a 1580 SAT may be happier and better off at Indiana University School of Music (itself a highly respected school) than at Duke or Yale. Not that they shouldnt attend Duke or Yale…but not if its just for the “prestige” factor. </p>

<p>Most every college in the United States started out essentially as a regional school…to educate students in that region…and hence their names are even the name of their location…or city. </p>

<p>Well, at least that is my perspective/bias.</p>

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<p>I’m extremely dubious. In the first place, it’s much harder to influence your PA score, especially in the short term. Schools look at those factors in the US News rankings that they can influence, and one of the most obvious is SAT scores and selectivity. Look where Wake is in the rankings: #30, with an overall US News rating of 69, just one point behind arch-rival UNC-Chapel Hill which is tied for #28 with a rating of 70 points. Are you telling me Wake wouldn’t love to vault past UNC-Chapel Hill in the U.S. News rankings? I think they’d give their eye teeth for it. </p>

<p>How can they do it? Well, spend a ton of money to try to lure a bunch of big name professors who will add luster to their faculty, then spend another ton of money to spread that news around to college presidents and provosts in hopes that it might, just might, bump up their PA score over time. But that’s slow, uncertain, and everyone’s doing it, or trying. Or they can look at controllable factors like SAT scores and selectivity. </p>

<p>I haven’t independently confirmed this, but I’ve read that dropping the SAT requirement can bump a school’s reported median SAT score upward by about 60 points, as low scorers elect not to report and high scorers do report, calculating that it only helps their chances of admission. A 60-point bump would vault Wake’s SAT medians from a virtual tie with UNC-Chapel Hill (1240-1400 for Wake, 1200-1390 for UNC) into a clear lead, 1300-1460, putting them more in the Georgetown (#23) to USC (#27) range. Dropping the SAT requirement also allows them, as you note, to “expand their applicant pool,” which of course reduces their admit rate from its current fairly high level of 43%, probably to a level matching UNC’s 34%. It also allows them to focus on admitting applicants in the top 10% of their HS class, another category where they now trail UNC (76% UNC, 63% Wake). Is this enough to overtake UNC? Maybe. To be sure, UNC has a commanding lead in the important category of PA rating, 4.2 to 3.5. But Wake leads in most other categories, including graduation & retention, faculty resources, financial resources, and alumni giving. My guess is dropping the SAT requirement will allow them to make up enough ground in SAT/selectivity to at least catch or possibly even surpass UNC-Chapel Hill, and claim bragging rights as the second-best research university in North Carolina as measured by US News.</p>

<p>And the whole thing, IMO, is just downright silly.</p>

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<p>Do you know how much weight classs rank has in the USNWR rankings? My son’s school does not weight grades and uses an unweighted class rank, so many horors students are bumped out of the top 10% by kids who never take any AP or honors classes. Admissions folks say that they take this into account and often unweight or reweight GPA, but you can’t really reweight class rank, and I’ve heard that accepting too many kids not in the top 10% can hurt a school’s USNWR rankings. It seems odd to count unweighted rank the same as weighted rank as it’s like comparing apples and oranges, but noone seems to make a distinction. I am hoping that this is not a big factor, and that schools are really not that concerned with class rank, but I suspect they are if kids do not make that top 10% cut.</p>

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<p>I think that the big driver for Wake is not a change in standardized test scores, but an improvement in their Top10% students (only 63% currently which is close to schools like GW and well below U North Carolina’s 76%) and an improvement in their PA (which IMO is a ridiculously low 3.5). The first is not that hard to do while the second takes more time, but is definitely doable given the current low PA level for Wake. But I will agree with you that it is silly if this dropping of standardized tests was done in order to boost their USNWR ranking. </p>

<p>If they are concerned about their ranking, one thing that Wake should lobby for is the inclusion of a metric for classroom teaching excellence. Nearly everything I’ve ever seen and heard about this school speaks to its commitment to undergraduate excellence in the classroom and the student surveys seem to reflect and appreciate this. Wake may not be a research powerhouse, but it is one school that seems to have its priorities straight relative to its undergraduate students and I think that virtually all employers with experience in drawing students from the school are impressed with the fundamentally sound students that the school regularly produces. Unfortunately, such strength is not much appreciated by the PA voters.</p>

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<p>According to US News, for national universities and LACs the category “high school class standing–top 10%” accounts for 40% of the “student selectivity” category, which in turn accounts for 15% of the total US News rating. So 40% of 15% is 6% of a school’s total US News rating. It’s enough that IF they’re concerned about their US News ranking—and it’s prudent to assume they all are—this is something they’ll need to look at. I think you’re absolutely right that this disadvantages some good students from strong high schools. IMO it’s one of the most arbitrary and uninformative elements in the US News ranking because the level of quality and scholastic achievement represented by being in the top 10% varies so widely from school to school and region to region.</p>

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<p>hawkette, the point is that dropping the SAT requirement allows them to attack 3 key elements of the US News ranking simultaneously: they bump up their median SAT scores (50% of 15%= 7.5% of total rating); they reduce their acceptance rate by pumping up the application rate (10% of 15% = 1.5%); AND they can more easily raise their “top 10%” score by going after a bunch of kids in the top 10% of their class who previously might have fallen below their target SAT medians, but now don’t need to report sub-median SAT scores (40% of 15%= 6% of total rating). And because kids in that pool aren’t going to be as competitive at schools that still do require the SAT, Wake should be able to land a healthy percentage of them. Many of them will probably be URMs, by the way; North Carolina still has a lot of de facto residential segregation, meaning there are a lot of kids in the top 10% of predominantly black schools who may not have top SAT scores who now suddenly look more attractive to Wake because they help Wake’s US News ranking, instead of hurting it. So indirectly, dropping the SAT requirement helps on Wake’s diversity goals as well, though that’s not reflected in US News. </p>

<p>As for basing PA on classroom teaching, that’s a pipe dream. There’s simply no way to evaluate it from a distance.</p>

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<p>bc: I agree with you. Wake will NEVER catch UNC in their recruitment of top 10% kids because UNC has a built in system which puts them at the top of the heep in state schools in NC while their tuition is only 5k a year for instate kids, and Wake Forest is 37k a year (49k TOTAL cost). What happens is that kids apply to both and then attend UNC on a cost basis. Wake has excellent financial aid and scholarships but it can still be around 25k total cost for the avg family when aid is included. Typical of most private colleges. Total cost at UNC is around 15k without aid. Wake has a reputation that its easier to get into than UNC but harder to stay, while UNC is harder to get into but easier to stay…and also harder to graduate in 4 years because of course availability etc. But they are in most factors peer schools. I dont know what Wake’s motivation is for this, but I am highly suspicious as well. </p>

<p>It is all rather silly if you ask me. A student and their family should select a school based on whether its a good fit for the student overall: academically, socially, financially and any other factors important to that family. I have no problem with kids wanting to go Ivy. The problem I have is people wanting schools solely for prestige, or applying to 15 schools with no intention of going there even if they do get accepted. A high percentage of applicants to top 25 schools do just that. Which is why I am a proponent of telling schools how many schools you are applying to and what they are and a relative personal ranking of “interest”. </p>

<p>Do most kids say “I want to get into and attend the best school that I can?” Of course. Nothing wrong with that. But it should not be an obsession to just apply to top tier schools or name schools. </p>

<p>When I see threads like, “Princeton or Harvard…help me decide!” I laugh. If they are that smart to be accepted at both, they dont need any help. They are just being coy and narcissistic. </p>

<p>I know people who turned down the Morehead Scholarship at UNC to attend an Ivy (Yale) and another who turned down Harvard to accept the Morehead at UNC. In that respect, they selected the best school for them it seems.</p>

<p>And if you ask me the best way to improve diversity in colleges based on race is to help minorities do better in school and to encourage them to STAY in school and NOT get involved with bad behavior. </p>

<p>Just the other day I was picking up my kid during exam week in high school and saw a bunch of black kids hanging around waiting for their rides. They were listening to rap music, had their pants down to their knees with their shirts off and their underwear showing…in fact their entire buttocks showing. Now what is the likelihood those kids are applying to Duke, Wake, UNC, Vanderbilt or even a lower ranked state university? Nil. What is the likelihood they will go to college, or finish if they even get in? I hesitate to give conjecture on that. </p>

<p>Both public and private secondary schools dont do enough for these kids to help them achieve their full potential academically and socially. And I dont mean by coddling them and giving hand outs either…a little more demanding discipline would also help. The answer is NOT affirmative action, the answer is HELPING THEM succeed in school before they go to college such that their applications for college are received in true parity with other students.</p>

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<p>Maybe college graduates who have observed the role the reputations of the colleges play in establishing initial reputations of the graduates? Other issues are important, but it’s not at all stupid to be aware of each college’s reputation before choosing a college to attend.</p>

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<p>Most kids applying to college do not look at the prestige factor. Remember the vast majority of kids applying to college do not have the resume of a student accepted at a top tier school. They are B/C students with an enormous variety of backgrounds and interests. Many will go to the state school which fits best. Those kids who are applying to private schools will also look at the best fit rather than ranking in USNWR. So, if you want quirkiness and diversity, head to your nearest state school ( preferably in an urban setting! ) and you will find it!</p>

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<p>fishnchips, what you describe is an issue in my town. It is not just AA students here … there are also Hispanic & white kids who dress/act like this. It seems to be more of a socioeconomic phenomenon. Whatever … it is something that I feel holds kids back from being considered on an even par with other kids their age. My friend’s son with the long hair & scruffy beard also has a problem being taken seriously as a student & an employee. Bottom line … there is a societal expectation that people will meet a minimal level of conformity if they want something (school, job, etc.). If they get to adulthood without understanding what is appropriate in various situations, someone has failed them … school, parents, themselves, whomever. </p>

<p>I wish I had a great message to post in response to this issue. I do not. I am concerned, though, and would welcome the thoughts of others.</p>

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<p>Here’s good news: Bowdoin, a top 10 LAC that has been known in the past for being WHITE and PREPPY, has one of the largest african american populations in any LAC this year. BRAVO BOWDOIN</p>

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<p>I’ve heard that this same change may be occurring at U Chicago too–that as the university becomes more selective, it loses its “quirky” students for a more traditional top student.</p>

<p>I think it’s a bunch of baloney, but that’s just me.</p>