<p>The</a> Associated Press: Wake Forest joins schools dropping SAT requirement</p>
<p>
[quote]
“By making the SAT and ACT optional, we hope to broaden the applicant pool and increase access at Wake Forest for groups of students who are currently underrepresented at selective universities,” said Martha Allman, director of admissions at Wake Forest. </p>
<p>High school curriculum and classroom performance combined with the student’s writing ability, extracurricular activities and evidence of character and talent will remain the most important criteria for admission. </p>
<p>“Students may still submit SAT or ACT scores for admission if they choose,” said Allman.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From Wake</a> Forest makes standardized tests optional in admissions</p>
<p>I think it is great that we are doing this. This certainly distinguishes us from our peer schools in a positive way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
we hope to broaden the applicant pool and increase access at Wake Forest for groups of students who are currently underrepresented at selective universities
[/quote]
ever consider why they're underrepresented (like maybe because they don't belong there)...imo this is a stupid idea because it just makes the college admissions process even more subjective (as if it weren't subjective enough already). test scores are a quantitative way of determining acceptance.</p>
<p>I am surprised by this. In my area, there is a huge difference among high schools in rigor and content of classes, gpa's, etc. Seems like these tests are at least some measure of standardization in determining readiness for college. They must be putting even more weight on the essay and ec's? One could argue that wouldn't be a fair way to compare applicants either.</p>
<p>I am not really sure. There are so many international students who exceedingly do well in high school just because they have learned this stuff like a year before or so. Remember, American high school curriculum is almost 1 or 2 year behind; AP exams are still much easier than high school graduation exam in other nations esp when we talk about math and science. SAT and ACT exams are the only things that international students who English is not their first language struggle with. They literally had to "study" for the SAT or ACT "a lot" to get into good colleges but now they can get into Wake Forest without any effort. Yes, there is TOEFL exam but it does not challenge them at all. Most international students spend some time in America and get a fine TOEFL score (higher than 110 IBT) while they have to study deeper to get 600 or higher on CR section.</p>
<p>At first I was a little shocked, but I'm overall happy with the decision. I think there is way too much emphasis on the SAT in college admissions. I'd much rather be judged on my academics over the course of four years than a test that took 4 hours. </p>
<p>Beyond that I also think this is a bit of a PR move on the part of Wake Forest and less of a help the underrepresented. They are getting national press and getting their name out there. I think that's mainly what they wanted. We all know Wake Forest wants to move up in the rankings and I think they'll probably do whatever it takes to get noticed.</p>
<p>We should think about WPI's case</p>
<p>Worcester Polytechnic Institute was not really a highly regarded university among the international applicants, neither is WFU. I talked about WPI with many of my friends and they all replied that this school is not looking at SAT score? sounds like it's begging for more applicants even though they know those applicants will not be very smart. Now they will remember Wake Forest as well one of the schools that are not a very good but begging for diversity and what not.</p>
<p>It's not begging for diversity but rather the unhealthy fixation on achieving high SAT scores during the junior year that is slowly destroying the college admissions system. Any rational human being could see that there is no way this cutthroat environment of college admissions could reasonably continue in its present form without someone getting hurt. The ubiquity of SAT-prep sessions, and the blockbuster sale volumes of SAT prep books, all point to a deleterious malady of obsession among the best high school students.</p>
<p>But standardized tests are really the only objective element in an application. In my area, high schools vary greatly in course quality and content. Many high schools don't rank, like ours for example because the system results in students taking fewer and easier classes to increase their GPA. Essays may not really be so original or representative of the student's personality, EC's could possibly be fabricated or embellished, recommendations can be unreliable. SAT/ACT test scores are really the only "fair" criteria in my opinion. They have been around for years and have been analyzed and re-evaluated countless times by experts. I agree they shouldn't be the only factor in an application, especially if some students just don't test well. But aren't the test results more often than not, correct as a measure of academic ability? Taking them out of the picture seems to rank "diversity", first-generation, etc., as more important than academic readiness. I have a feeling that this move on WF's part will cause very academically gifted potential applicants to reconsider applying there. All this seems to do is to move academic ability down a few notches on the importance scale, when there are a lot of very smart kids who really just want to go to a college with other really bright kids and don't care as much about the other stuff.</p>
<p>SAT's arent perfect and they should not be the sole factor in determining whether one is admitted to a university or not. However, tests help level the playing field. A 3.5 in a inner city school is not the same as a 3.5 in a competitive suburban school.</p>
<p>College Admissions people know that a 3.5 at a less competitive school (inner city or elsewhere) is not the same as a 3.5 at another, competitive school. From all I've heard, SAT's are only good for predicting a student's performance during the first semester of freshman year -- if that.</p>
<p>This is a classic academic/psuedo-intellectual spin on the theme of and strangling need for "diversity" ... and an institution's specific strategy to deal with the clarion call on every college campus to this mythical notion. </p>
<p>What it clearly does is allow/enable admitting and enrolling students who for various reasons fail to score well on the SAT, ACT, and other standardized tests, i.e. cannot make the grade under the current rules of the game. Translated this often means those pools of persons who are often the targets of diverification strategies, i.e. underrepresented groups of people, not individuals. We can be absoulutely certain that this policy is directed at GROUPS, not INDIVIDUALS. By doing so, this will enable that more subjective, mysterious, and unaccountable assessment of certain candidacies and their eventual admission. In other words, WFU and others are implicitly saying, "These folks either cannot or will not score on the test and therefore we must admit them on another basis."</p>
<p>The 2nd thing this strategy allows is for institutions to concurrently enhance the perception of their selectivity. How so? Would anyone desire to place a bet on whether WFU's ACT/SAT mean scores go up or down as a result of allowing scores to be "optional"??? You got it ... Only those traditional, high scoring candidates will continue to use their scores to enable and enhance their admissions possibilities. I score poorly. Don't use them. I score well. You bet I want them included in my app. So it accommodates the pathetic need of every academic institution that wants us to perceive and believe that this type of decision is a function of their institution's humane and broad understanding of the various forms of intellect, a great many of which fail to exhibit themselves on a 4 hour SAT exam. (I agree, btw, with this notion.)</p>
<p>But in the end, this is a sly, slick strategy of frustrated admissions and administrative personnel who are annually catching he11 for 2 major issues ...</p>
<ol>
<li><p>YOU must raise the scores and class profile that we will be more like Duke, Princeton, Hahvod; and</p></li>
<li><p>YOU must get more persons of color and non-Western European origin onto this campus.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Now do it.</p>
<p>And you know what, this strategy will accommodate both needs, relieve the trustee and other institutional ego demands, and make it all look like the "right" thing to do. </p>
<p>I'm no champion of SAT and ACT exams aside from one thing ... It does provide a level playing field, requires everyone to play the game by the same rules regardless of HS competitiveness or individual curricula. It is the classic notion of education and the University ... FAIRNESS and performance based not upon class, color, sex, sexuality, creed, etc. ... That regardless of one's status, hard work, diligence in school, and the American dream can be achieved through getting that education and following this course. And now, they're saying ... well that's all good, unless you cannot make it, then we'll change the rules so you can win. So much for mom, apple pie, and the American way, right? :confused:</p>
<p>Btw, what will be the next potential problem or challeng of this decision? Retention. Why is WFU no longer returning 95% of its freshmen to the sophomore class? Well, probably because we failed to provide the necessary academic support to enable those students who could not be enrolled based upon their math, verbal, and writing skills and then were expected to compete from day #1 with those who could and were. </p>
<p>And lastly, what if that does NOT happen? Well, then it only goes to prove the bogus nature of predicting collegiate success based upon SAT/ACT and the nature of the collusion between those testing agencies and their university captives.</p>
<p>So what do you think will happen 5 years down the path?</p>
<p>I'd wager a lot of money that WFU drops out of the USNews Top 50 over the period of the next five years.</p>
<p>Some of the predictive power of SATs isn't picked up in statistical analysis because most of the studies look at the success rate of admitted students. I'd be the first to agree that a twenty or fifty point difference in SAT-M (for example) doesn't mean much. However, a two or three hundred point difference would (I expect) correlate quite well with academic performance. IMO, it's a good bet that a student with a 500 SAT-M will struggle at MIT.</p>
<p>Still, if a college knows those high schools that send it students, it can probably figure out most of what it needs from the transcript.</p>
<p>The loser might be a student from a distant/unfamiliar high school with difficult grading. Of course, a student in that situation can still submit a sterling SAT score as a boost to his/her application.</p>
<p>Honestly, this move by WF may cause very academically-gifted students to reconsider applying there. Simply put, right or not, it seems to say "your academic credentials aren't as important to us as is our diversity, and you may be accepted or not, based on who knows what, really, and you may or may not be working with other students who put academics at the top of their list for choosing to attend here, so you can take the gamble and apply here if you want to." I know you guys can argue this from all sides, but in a nutshell, that's how it comes across to me.</p>
<p>Aworldapart,</p>
<p>why so?</p>
<p>"I'd wager a lot of money that WFU drops out of the USNews Top 50 over the period of the next five years."</p>
<p>agreed, Kentuckymom.</p>
<p>While it's gaining a larger number of applicants, at the same time, it will lose smartest, brightest applicants.</p>
<p>Wake wants more people to apply, I think that's part of the point here. They are not as well known as schools like Duke, etc. I think this is mainly a publicity ploy. They want the national attention and more applications. </p>
<p>Hatch's strategic plan wants Wake to head in the direction that Duke is going. I think if that's the stated goal, then this is a mistake. But then again I think most of what Hatch is doing is both mistaken and short-sighted. Wake wants the bigger applicant pool, but they also want the smart bright kids. Like other posters have pointed out, this strategy might limit the appeal of Wake to the smarter and brighter kids, but I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I don't think Wake should be the next Southern Ivy or whatever they are aiming to be. That would completely change the environment of the school, which is what originally attracted most students to Wake.</p>
<p>on USnews ranking Wake is going down.. from 27- 29 - 30 if i remember it correctly. now it's saying Top 30 but it used to be closer to Top 25 or so.</p>
<p>What did they do about it? They changed the school emblem. nice try!</p>