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<p>Another ultra-reach: Deep Springs College. Teeny, male-only, rural, highly unusual structure and curriculum. It’s a two-year school, after which students transfer to, well, pretty much anywhere they want. It is one of the most selective schools in the nation.</p>
<p>Oh, and it’s free. :)</p>
<p>Definitely not for everyone, but have your son take a look at the website and see if it is at all of interest.</p>
<p>If your student is planning to be an engineering major many of your concerns about university size are unfounded. Engineering departments tend to be small in comparison to popular majors like econ, sociology, etc.</p>
<p>I did my undergrad at Ohio State and the civil engineering department had a very intimate vibe. Most of the profs knew each student and our graduating class totaled about 40, smaller than many LAC department classes. We played basketball together, “tailgated” on the Hitchcock Hall patio game days, went on ASCE field trips with prof, had brownbag lunches together in the CE library, did CE competition projects with faculty(conc canoe races, steel bridge comp, etc) and had about 2-4 social functions each year.</p>
<p>Yes, the intro classes were large lectures but they were always supplemented with small recitation sessions of about 25 students.</p>
<p>I came from rural upstate NY and never felt overwhelmed by the size of OSU. However I was overwhelmed by the size of the course catalogue. There were not many universities where I could have taken Serbo-Croatian lit, social cybernetics, iron metallurgy, and sociology of race in America taught by Gunnar Myrdal as some of my electives.</p>
<p>University of Washington gives full ride scholarships for the school of Chemical engineering/pulp and paper science. Even if he doesn’t want to go into that field, if it is a choice between that and not being able to afford school, you can work around it. I did it, and ended up editing a tech magazine in europe.</p>
<p>Would second Carnegie Mellon. Also, not quite as prestigious, but Ohio University Honors College would probably offer your son a full ride (my nephew is there on one :). Penn State (University park campus) also has an Honors College. In this economy, many families with “ivy capable kids” are flocking to the honors colleges.</p>
<p>If he’s checked out the NMF package at Alabama, he should check out U. of Oklahoma as well. I also second Cltdad’s suggestion of HYPS. Like his D, our D would not qualify for aid at most schools. She’s getting a $30,000 / year discount from H.</p>
<p>OP, use the search function for posts by Curmudgeon. His daughter decided on Rhodes College and declined to attend Yale for her undergraduate. Curmudgeon has spent years educating people on pursuing the elusive merit dollars, and with great success.</p>
<p>You may also dig in the deep history of this forum for posts by Evil Robot. He also declined to attend Yale and, after agonizing for weeks, decided to attend Vandy. </p>
<p>The outcome: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/558534-your-dream-school-versus-your-finances.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/558534-your-dream-school-versus-your-finances.html</a></p>
<p>The process: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/37237-long-financial-road-matriculation.html?highlight=Evil_Robot[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/37237-long-financial-road-matriculation.html?highlight=Evil_Robot</a></p>
<p>Excerpt from last post:</p>
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<p>Ah Deep Springs! My husband was wishing he was 35 years younger. </p>
<p>One more quick plug for Whitman, great dorms, good food, really nice kids and a tremendous outdoor program. My son went on a Scramble (pre-school outdoor bonding adventure) and went rock climbing. He loved it. They have a huge outdoor program with opportunities galore for outdoor leaders: skiing, kayaking, backpacking, rock climbing etc. Paying opportunities.</p>
<p>I agree that first impressions on those dorms (or whatever the kids key in on) can be hard to get beyond. Parents will tell of students who refused to get out of the car on visits. No reason, they just didn’t like it and were NOT getting out of the car. It’s hard. When your son camps he doesn’t expect luxuries such as a decent room. He doesn’t want to camp at college. Staying in dorms over the summer can give a difficult impression. They don’t have things they would normally bring to make dorm life more comfortable. It’s not ‘home’, and the heat can be oppressive. </p>
<p>All of these things ARE important to a young person. Let’s face it. When they think of college, they think of hanging out with friends in… a dorm. It’s natural. He’ll get beyond it, and look at the big picture. Your son has worked hard and will make the decision that is right for him. I know my son saw that (Auburn is his ‘safey’) and had to take dorm consideration off his list when comparing schools.</p>
<p>Totally agree with blueiguana. To me, at least, the most important factors are 1) Finding schools that match you academically (with some reaches and safeties thrown in); 2) Finding schools within that universe that match you financially; 3) Then choosing from those schools based on numerous factors like location, weather, sports, Greek life, whatever. This is where the kid is going to spend 4 years. That’s a long time to be somewhere freezing when you love warm weather.</p>
<p>MomFromTexas also had a very good string about finding merit money. Search for that as well.</p>
<p>OP, some of the housing at the “elite” schools is downright cruddy compared to newer state U’s. So if you can help your S to articulate how important dorms are to him vs. everything else, that will help- if he’s unwilling to live in typical student quarters that will narrow the list very quickly.</p>
<p>I would urge you to explore these 3/2 programs very carefully. I know many kids who start them; I know very few who finish them with an actual degree in engineering. Either the original school is just not a good fit- socially or academically- so the kids ends up leaving after Freshman year, or the hassle factor of leaving after three years is too much, or finances come back into play (regardless of how generous the aid- four years at a college you can afford costs less than 5 years at two different colleges.)</p>
<p>If the GC isn’t too helpful in the guidance department, can he/she at least provide your son with a list of email addresses from kids who have graduated in the last three years? We found it’s easier to get a reality check on campus culture, academics, etc. from kids who attended the same HS than from strangers. Even if it’s a kid who had little in common with your son, there’s some value in hearing from kids who know your HS.</p>
<p>One of my kids had a random encounter with a kid a year older from his HS who was raving about his college and said, “It’s pretty much a continuation of HS- that’s how much fun it is”. Which was all it took for my son to take it completely off his list!!</p>
<p>That’s a good observation on the financial factor regarding the 3/2 program, blossom. Not sure I agree about the other part, regarding the fit of the original school though. That would seem to me to be no more or less true than any student might encounter. But you are right that the student would have to move an extra time, and the second school might treat financial aid like they do for other transfer students, which usually is not as good as for first time freshmen and continuing students, from what I hear. But that probably varies by school.</p>
<p>Love your anecdote in the last paragraph. Too funny.</p>
<p>I got very curious about 3/2 programs after blossom’s post. I found a 2008 thread called
3-2 Engineering Programs</p>
<p>The original post was by CollegeSolution and this what was said:</p>
<p>"My son is a junior in high school and he wants to major in engineering. My husband and I are concerned about the high wash out rate of students majoring in engineering at universities. At some schools it’s as high as 50%. Consequently, we were curious about 3-2 programs at liberal arts colleges. </p>
<p>Many liberal arts colleges across the country offer these 3-2 degree programs. You attend three years at a liberal arts college and the next two years at an engineering school and you end up with a liberal arts degree and an engineering degree. Colleges often align with the engineering schools at Columbia University and Washington University in St. Louis. Some of the other schools that participate include Penn State, Case Western Reserve and Duke.</p>
<p>I wondered, however, if these 3-2 programs really work. Do the colleges adequately prepare students for the rigors of engineering school in the fourth and fifth year of school? </p>
<p>What I found out when I talked with the director of the engineering program at Washington University was extremely encouraging. (He didn’t want his name used because he said he is leaving the program after eight years and someone will be taking his place.)</p>
<p>The engineer was positively ebullient in his praise of the liberal arts students who end up at Washington University’s engineering program. He said some of the best engineering students at his school are the liberal arts transfers. He said the liberal arts majors are mature, they actually finish the engineering program–unlike some of Wash U.'s own students – and they get great jobs. He said employers are very eager to hire engineers with the extra liberal arts degree. “It’s almost too good to be true,” he gushed.</p>
<p>He attributes the success of the transfer students to the more personalized attention at their smaller liberal arts schools, which can provide the nurturing some kids need to get through rigorous math and science classes. A student at a liberal arts college is more likely to receive help as opposed to a student at a university where there could be hundreds in a calculus class.</p>
<p>He has been so pleased with the success of the 3-2 program that he said if he could get his engineering degree over again, he would start at a liberal arts school. </p>
<p>He said there should be no mystery about who is accepted for the program. Washington University posts the requirements on its web sites. For instance, a student needs to have taken three calculus courses, two semesters of calculus-based physics, two semesters of chemistry, etc. The school requires a 3.25 GPA, but some schools don’t require a GPA this high. He believes Columbia only requires a 3.0 GPA. If a student meets all the posted requirements, he or she accepted to the program. </p>
<p>Washington U. does provide financial aid and some merit aid to students, but there are no guarantees. The package a student receives may be better or worse than the one they obtained at their liberal arts colleges. </p>
<p>I am going to talk to the person in charge of the 3-2 program at Columbia University when she gets back from vacation. In an brief email, she said she considers the 3-2 program to be a hidden educational gem. </p>
<p>This approach won’t necessarily be the right fit for all would-be engineers, but it’s definitely worth considering. Especially since the wash out rate for engineering students who choose the traditional route is so high."</p>
<p>You don’t have to visit all the schools you apply to - you can use spring break next March and visit those where you are accepted and the price tag is right with merit and aid.</p>
<p>When looking at need-based schools, be sure to distinguish between those with truly deep pockets (HYPDS and Pomona, for example) and those with only moderately deep pockets (Bowdoin, even less so Carleton, Brown, Cornell, the U of C, et al). The former are the group where the deeper discounts are to be found. Always try running your actual figures through their calculators. If you have actually suffered job loss and dimunition of income, you may get more than you think. It is common for people to assume that if their income is $75K that they are “out of range” for FA. That is not true at the deep pockets schools.</p>
<p>CMU, Rice, and Boston University all offer engineering with a chance of merit aid.</p>
<p>BU offers an honors college with nice housing.</p>
<p>Given his negative reaction to big schools, and strong stats, how about Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Penn and Cornell? And Carnegie was an excellent suggestion</p>
<p>Regarding 3-2 Engineering schools: Yes, the engineering schools like the few kids who come to them from the LAC’s. The students who actually GO to the second school are definitely well prepared by their LAC physics and calculus classes and the overall rigor of their previous program.</p>
<p>I think the issue is that not many students who start out at LACs intending to leave after three years to become engineers will actually do so. LACs are small. The students bond with their professors and their classmates. They don’t WANT to leave just when senior year is beginning; that is the culminating year for a great LAC experience. </p>
<p>I would suggest that if you are considering an LAC with a 3-2 program and really want to be an engineer, you ask the administratin or the physics and math departments about the number of students who leave after three years to become engineers. I think you will find that the number of students who do this is very small. If this is at all important to you, find out, from the LAC, how many kids intending to do 3-2 finished an engineering program in 5 years (3-2) in, say, 09, 08, and 07.</p>
<p>OP,
Out of your list, I am familiar with financial side at Case. Case is known for great Merit packages. we are also very far from getting any need based scholarships. My D. received very good Merit package at Case. It would have covered all but $5,000 in tuition (we are in-state and some Merit $$ from state of Ohio would be applicable at Case). However, she went to different UG for non-financial reason. This UG which also happened to be very good in regard to Merit packages, so she ended up with all tuition and some R&B covered by Merit $$$ and it has been increasing every year (currently college senior). However, it is public in-state, and is very expensive for OOS. D. is currently applying to Case Grad. School. Her best friend is in UG at Case and she absolutely loves it. Sorry, I am not familiar with other schools. Best wishes!</p>
<p>USC (Southern Cal) and U of Tulsa for National Merit , maybe Rice as a merit reach. And while WashU is a merit reach for everybody, keep it on the list. U of Miami might love him. Certainly Vanderbilt needs to be there. Maybe this program or similar at Emory. <a href=“Error 404: Page Not Found”>Error 404: Page Not Found;
<p>Great profile. It sounds to me like you might look through all the mid-sized privates offering some big merit aid awards and engineering. I’ll try to think of others not mentioned so far.</p>