Guidance Counselor Nice, but Short on Guidance

Parents Forum
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<p>Hello All,</p>

<p>Ours is a story all too familiar on this board: we are a family with an income that makes them ineligible for financial aid, but due to job losses and losses in the college savings account our EFC is not doable. The good news is that our son, a senior, has high stats that we hope will make him eligible for a merit scholarship. I have read much on schools that give merit aid (my thanks for all the info), however, I am having difficulty with that elusive “fit” aspect. The dollars are way important, but I don’t want him to end up somewhere that he is completely out of place. He is a bright, athletic, compassionate, quiet, and sort of quirky—just a really nice kid. He thinks he wants to major in engineering.</p>

<p>We have visited many schools trying to learn more about what works for DS. Perhaps his comments/impressions will give you some idea as to who he is. </p>

<p>Alabama-Beautiful campus, the best dorms anywhere, concerned about party school reputation and heavy Greek social scene. Didn’t get a good feel for the academics—the tour did not even take us into a classroom.</p>

<p>Auburn—Nice campus, friendly students, honors dorms were cramped, the town was way too small.</p>

<p>Case—Did not have a campus feel, freshman dorms were awful, weather was a negative, some nearby areas that probably should be avoided at night.</p>

<p>Washington University in St.Louis—Gorgeous campus, great location with easy access to downtown, next to a lovely park, most helpful folks we encountered, flexible curriculum, great dorms. Very expensive. Was all set to apply until he saw the scholarship application which asked about research. That just doesn’t happen in his high school. The kids don’t do research, participate in math or science competitions, or attend prestigious summer programs. (We never heard of any of these until we came across College Confidential.) He will apply, but doubts the money will work out.</p>

<p>Michigan—Great town, nice campus, good academics, might be too big, dorms were not great.</p>

<p>Ohio State—Way too big, too easy to be just a number. Dorms were cramped. </p>

<p>Michigan State—Nice kids, but too big.</p>

<p>Purdue—He spent a week there at an engineering camp. Liked the camp content, hated the school. The dorm was awful, the town was too small, the camp administration was disorganized (what would it be like to add or drop a class here—not a good impression)</p>

<p>University of Minnesota-Twin Cities—Liked the urban vibe, really big, Engineering prof who showed the labs was great, dorms were dingy.</p>

<p>So what do you think? Can you suggest schools that might give merit aid and where this quiet, quirky kid would fit? Our school guidance counselor is a nice lady who will do a fine job completing the paperwork, but she is way short on guidance!</p>

<p>Thanks so much.</p>

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<p>Is he willing to look at smaller schools? RPI or WPI both gave my son merit money. How about Olin or Cooper Union? Rose Hullman also comes to mind since you’ve got a bunch ofm midwest schools. You might also look at Rice.</p>

<p>It really depends on hist stats which you haven’t given us.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the reply! He is not 100% certain that he will stick to engineering so he is avoiding schools like Olin and Rose Hullman and targeting schools that offer a wider array of options should he change his mind.</p>

<p>I should probably have added something about his academics and EC’s.</p>

<p>Academics:</p>

<p>NMSF—just found out
SAT 2320 (790 CR, 780 M, 750 W)
SAT II Bio E 800 Math II 800 US History 790
GPA 4.6 weighted, 4.0 unweighted
Rank 1/130—suburban public in the Midwest
AP’s—European History, US History, Bio, CalculusAB, English Composition (all 5’s) and Computer Science A (4). AP’s on Senior schedule: Calculus BC, Latin Vergil, English Literature, Physics, US Government, and Stats. The only other AP offered at his school is Art—not his thing.</p>

<p>Extracurricular :</p>

<p>Sports—because it is a small school he has been able to participate in sports every season: Soccer-2 JV letters, 1 varsity letter; Swimming-3 varsity letters; Lacrosse—2 JV letters, 1 varsity letter</p>

<p>Plans to play soccer, swim, and play lacrosse during senior year. Additionally, the Cross Country coach recruited him to run for the team and he agreed to run when there is no conflict with soccer.</p>

<p>Student Council—elected class representative four years</p>

<p>Eagle Scout</p>

<p>Thanks, again</p>

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<p>Suggest looking at Carnegie Mellon - good for quirky kids and engineers. Tulane - probably the best merit money around (although I think their engineering is only biomed now). Rice - low tuition, good in all subjects and great in engineering.</p>

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<p>I noted comments regarding dorms. It seemed as though most of them you were not impressed with. Hopefully others will offer their opinion as well.</p>

<p>My thought is you can not compare most dorms to Alabama or even Auburn (although cramped). These super-suites have been built mainly as a perk to bring in high achieving oos students such as your student. Alabama also has outdoor pools with a lazy river outside their dorms. You can’t compare. Most other dorms will pale in comparison. My son felt that GATechs, VTs, and even UVa’s dorms were not the schools greatest asset. It is not something he considers in those schools, more something he overlooks because the academics far outweigh this.</p>

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<p>Carnegie Mellon isn’t just engineering, so I agree it’s a reasonable possiblity though they aren’t known for being generous. Tufts is also a real possibility. WPI and RPI aren’t just engineering BTW, though that is probably their strength. The daughter of a friend of ours (now doing grad school in microbiology at Cornell) was an undergrad at RPI.</p>

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<p>First of all, congratulations, your son has done a heck of a job so far! Lots of smaller LACs give great merit aid, if your son is not really sure about engineering he might consider a liberal arts college. My son had slightly lower scores and grades, good leadership ECs, and multiple sports, he was offered tremendous merit awards at schools where he was in the top 25% of the applicant pool. Have you looked at Macalester College in St. Paul, a terrific school and the package they offered was over the moon. He ended up at Whitman College in Walla Walla, WA, for a variety of reasons, mainly because he loves it and was given a very nice scholarship. He was a contender for their biggest merit award which covers nearly the whole tuition. He didn’t get it, but with your son’s scores and scout history he’d be a major contender. Schools also like to attract kids outside their geographical area, so he’d have a leg up in the western schools.</p>

<p>Our son went to a small rural high school where the guidance counselor is overworked and underpaid. Her knowledge of colleges was pretty limited and limiting. We are in a similar financial position as you are I’d imagine. We own too much, but our income has plummeted, and our investments have gone sour. The most valuable thing we learned from other parents was to look for merit aid, not need based aid. Our son got into Colby, Bowdoin, Tufts, and Boston College, in the end we couldn’t afford to send him to any of them because of the need based formulas. Of course, we are committed to getting him through undergraduate school without saddling him with debt. He got tremendous offers from 5 other schools who are a little lower down on the selectivity charts who offer merit aid. I recommend getting college guide books and deciding how far away you’re willing to send him. He’s qualified to go some very fine places! </p>

<p>Good luck, he sounds like a wonderful kid who will have a lot of choices.</p>

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<p>Just to mildly correct 1012mom, Tulane retained Biomed and Chemical Engineering. They did eliminate civil, mechanical and electrical, but they have programs with Vanderbilt and Johns Hopkins that if you major in physics for 3 years at Tulane, you can automatically go to either of those other schools for 2 years to get a degree in one of the eliminated engineering majors. So in the end you get a physics degree from Tulane, and an engineering degree from the other school. Just to let you know.</p>

<p>Also, with his stats, he has an excellent chance for the Dean’s Honor Scholorship at Tulane. Requires an additional application, but nothing like the WUSTL one about research and the like. It is more based on creativity (you will see what I mean) and stats which in his case are outstanding. The scholarship is guaranteed full tuition for 4 years. My D got it with SAT’s that were only slightly better than his, a slightly lower GPA, and his EC’s are far better.</p>

<p>Finally, just to continue my “hard sell” lol, Tulane is a great school to explore other options because they don’t separate the schools as far as where you get in and the like. Everyone is in Newcomb-Tulane College, and so the different schools like Liberal Arts, Science & Engineering, even Architecture are all under that umbrella, and anyone can pick a major in any school. It really might be a great fit academically, financially, and with regards to size. Gorgeous campus in the upscale part of New Orleans, also. Visit if you can.</p>

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<p>Northeastern has good scholarships for NMSFs.</p>

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<p>You S has great stats. Have you looked at BU, Syracuse and Northeastern? I don’t know anything about the dorms at any of them, but would like to suggest that kids (heck most of us) can get used to anything. I do know kids at all three schools who got great merit aid.</p>

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<p>Congratulations to your son on his NMSF status and his accomplishments!</p>

<p>You might want to check out this thread about the merit aid percentages given at various schools. I didn’t start it, but have tried to continue the list (on the last page) because it is helpful to others and relevant to my daughter’s search for merit aid. If colleges in which you’re interested aren’t included, you can use the instructions on this thread to compute the relevant percentage for yourself (and it would help others if you contributed to the thread).</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/696637-merit-aid-percentage-common-data-set-6.html?highlight=merit[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/696637-merit-aid-percentage-common-data-set-6.html?highlight=merit&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>You know, the more I think about it, the more I think you should check out Tufts. The money offered wasn’t fabulous for us, but DS applied regular decision and not for engineering. If your son loved Tufts (really great engineering, plus everthing else!) you might consider having him apply early decision. I think some of these schools tend to be more generous early in the process (someone will tell me if I’m wrong). Then if the answer is no, or the aid not enough, he goes to plan B. As I understand it, a student may reject an ED decision offer if the financial aid award is insufficient.</p>

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<p>In addition to merit aid schools, I think that your S ought to give some of the Ivies and MIT/Stanford a shot, in the interests of spreading a wide financial net. He certainly has the stats to be competitive, and the FA at some of them is significantly more generous to those with good incomes than at other schools. At least look into the FA policies and see where you would stand. </p>

<p>Although it sounds as if he might not be keen on the weather, Pitt is a school with a good honors college, broad academic strength, and reportedly excellent FA for top students.</p>

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<p>There is a thread here specifically listing full tuition scholarships for NMF’s:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Be careful not to miss any of the deadlines or steps between semi-finalist and finalist. :)</p>

<p>I would like to suggest that he consider the University of Rochester.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to point out that Tufts doesn’t give merit-based aid (although they might have National Merit Finalist scholarship). I turned down Tufts because they gave me $0 and chose Northeastern-- and never regretted my decision once. I can’t imagine being anywhere else (Tufts is an awesome school but not worth such debt IMO). Northeastern is pretty great with merit aid. Feel free to PM or something if you have any questions about Northeastern!</p>

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<p>To build upon Consolation’s suggestion, your son should take a shot at HYPS (not necessarily the other Ivies or MIT) as they really do give improved FA for people in your situation. This was the case for my daughter where H gave a $20K discount while we got no FA from schools like WUStL or Duke. Those other schools (as well as Emory, Tulane, UNC-CH and Brandeis) were on her list for attempts at merit aid. While offered merit aid at some of them, the numbers for H worked for us. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Yes, look at Stanford. Their aid is largely income based. Just as an aside, Whitman has a 3/2 engineering program in conjunction with Cal Tech. </p>

<p>With your son’s stats, I think you can cast a wide net. The only thing that you need to be prepared for is the possibility of getting in to some of these places that are fabulous and not being able to afford them. That was our experience, my son’s top choice was Bowdoin and we went through some heartache trying to come to terms with the finances. My son understood to risks from the beginning, but that didn’t mean he didn’t feel it when the reality was there. He’s now at a great place that is really perfect for him AND us. Would he apply to all the same schools if he had it to do over again, I think so. Life’s a gamble, it might have worked out the other way and it certainly didn’t hurt his self esteem any.</p>

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<p>Do look at the National Merit thread, but make sure to go to the end for the most up-to-date information. There are also non-guaranteed competitive NMF scholarships available at some schools that aren’t included in the thread; you’ll want to check the NM booklet for info on what schools offer NM money. </p>

<p>I agree about looking at Rochester, and would also suggest looking at USC. The Alabama supporters haven’t weighed in yet promoting the Honors program.</p>

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<p>He probably could have his pick of small-mid sized, private LAC’s or balanced colleges. Real bad shortage of ‘men’ of high academic accomplishment and athletics. </p>

<p>Look for 45/55, boy/girl ratio. More girls, the better aid. JIMO/YMMV.</p>

<p>Do you have trouble in keeping the ‘bees’, away?</p>

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<p>Thank you! You have suggested a number of schools that were not on our radar screen—we will investigate further. Tulane, Northeastern, and Whitman sound very intriguing. CMU and Pitt are about a 5 hour drive—doable once soccer season ends. We have family in Minneapolis, a plus for Macalaster. Rochester was on his list because of the fifth year “free”. I really don’t know how many students take advantage of it, but the idea of strictly studying things that you found interesting really appealed to DS.</p>

<p>We have advised our son not to get his heart set on any one school—in the end it will all come down to the money. As much as we tried to shelter him from the stress that we were feeling when our financial world tilted, he was aware of what was going on. He is very pragmatic and very frugal. I think that I will be the one who will be most distraught if he gets into a first choice school that we can’t afford.</p>

<p>I don’t know why he had such strong feelings about the dorms. Alabama was the first school we toured and their dorms became the standard against which everything else was measured. Nothing else even came close. Still, this is a kid who loved his High Adventure trips in the Boundary Waters and Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico—no soap, no hot water, no plumbing of any sort. (I can’t even begin to describe how his pack smelled when he returned from Philmont!!) I would never have guessed that he would have strong feeling about dorms. During his week at Purdue it was in the mid 90’s and the air was almost too thick to breathe. The dorm did not have air conditioning and the bathroom was down the hall. I suspect that he did not sleep well in the heat and that he never remembered to take a towel or tooth brush when he went off to the shower! I agree that academics should take priority over the living arrangements. It is pretty easy to evaluate the living arrangements. Evaluating the academics is trickier, but with each school we visited we became more discriminating.</p>

<p>LongPrime, there were several schools that he took off his list because were too many boys! He is shy so he needs all the help he can get!</p>

<p>Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses</p>