tough high schools and class rank...

Parents Forum
1

<p>I've been looking at some of the scholarships offered by various schools, and many of them have a hard-and-fast "top 10%" or similar requirement. My son attends the county magnet for math, science, and technology. ALL the kids in that program take multiple AP's, have good to excellent grades, etc., etc.<br>
Should we have had him attend a regular local school where he would have absolutely been in the top 10%?</p>

<p>That's rhetorical. We would have picked the school with the best academics and fit, no matter what. But it is a bit of a bummer that this choice may end up hurting him in the merit aid game.</p>

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<p>Mom, I understand your exasperation but, like you, we selected our Ds high school based on opportunity to learn, not opp to do well. That's just the way it is in competing for merit aid. There are always alternative schools that weigh something besides top 10%.</p>

3

<p>Most competitive schools do not rank. Are you sure your son's schools ranks?
Kids from these schools are not eligible for some scholarships that absolutely insist on ranking (yes, this is stupid, but the fact of life). But in general they get merit aid fine.</p>

4

<p>Don't assume that because your son went to a different school that he would automatically be in the top 10%. Different environment, different attitudes, different motivations, etc...</p>

<p>I don't need to tell you anything about merit scholarships. You probably already know about them. They are given by the school and it's never enough to cover the entire costs anyway. What I want to tell you is that there is plenty of other scholarships and money out there that doesn't come directly from the school. Don't think that schools are the only ones to give scholarships and money. If your son really wants into a particular school, and he is accepted, then you can definitely find the money if you look.</p>

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<p>My daughter was in a similar position at her science and math magnet school. Luckily, the school didn't rank. I wondered at first if that would be a problem, but she did get several nice merit scholarships from the colleges that admitted her.</p>

6

<p>I feel your pain. My child is in the same boat. If he transferred to his home school, he'd be top 5% easy but instead is barely holding on to the second decile. But, he's getting a great education and excellent college prep, and that's what matters to me.</p>

7

<p>Many of the competitive schools don't rank, but send out a school profile that includes some statistics about the PRIOR year's class GPA as a reference point, especially to put weighting into perspective. IE, the top 5% of the prior year's graduating class had a gpa over 5.0, the top 15% had a gpa over 4.5...</p>

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<p>If you think your situation is bad, consider the situation of the "regular" students in the high school my daughter attended. Three-quarters of the population of this high school consisted of "regular" students from the local district that the high school served, and the other one-quarter consisted of highly academically talented students from all over the county who were participating in a selective-entry IB program. </p>

<p>Can you imagine what bringing in 100 top students from elsewhere does to the class rank of the other 300?</p>

<p>Technically, this school, like all others in its district, does not rank. However, anyone who looks at the high school report that is sent out with college transcripts can easily figure out a student's approximate rank (the report gives the proportions of the class that attain various weighted and unweighted GPAs).</p>

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<p>mom2three: I could go on for pages about this topic, but I will address a similar conundrum you may not have considered..</p>

<p>Your son could end up in top 10% in a different school, yet have a lower unweighted GPA than neighbor schools. There are some colleges, believe it or not, that do not care about the class rank (because so many competitive schools have eliminated it) and only care about reporting the UW GPA.....If a particular school has grade deflation, this situation is negative as well....</p>

<p>Interestingly enough, my d is graduating in the top 7% of her class...The highly competitive schools she was admitted to report class rank stats....the two she was waitlisted to report UW GPA's.....Hmmmmmm</p>

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<p>It's not that we particularly care about class rank (we are in a similar boat to OP), it's that some colleges have a hard-and-fast rule about a GC providing rank (or at least a decile ranking) for merit money. We are facing that one right now -- the college insists on top 10% in HS for the merit award, even for kids from coming from programs like Stuy, TJ, etc. who otherwise have awards and scores to support exceptional achivement in HS.</p>

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<p>There are way too many assumptions on this topic. Some people assume that their student's grades are linear. That somehow if they went to an "easier" school that they would automatically do better with a higher GPA and class ranking. Don't bet on it. The vast majority of kids who get "C" in their classes and have attitude problems; "Many times misdiagnosed as ADD and other problems"; have simply been found to have just not been challenged and they are bored. Bored to the point of not caring about the classes. Kids have been known to do WORSE in an "easier" school. I come from a military background. My friends and I have children who have had to move to a new school every 2-4 years. Overseas was easy because most DODD schools are identical. Stateside school were totally different than another one a mile away. Don't assume your kid would do better. We see straight "A" students drop their GPA all the time. We also see "C" students all of a sudden excel. Different classes, teachers, friends, environment, etc... It all affects the student.</p>

<p>Which brings us to the colleges and universities. They are not stupid, and neither is their admission department. They know that there are different schools with different personalities to them. Don't get overly confident when you spit out the words "Competitive High School". The only thing competitive about the school your kid goes to is that they have more kids going to 4 year colleges and more selective universities than another school nearby. But this is usually because of built in expectations; class size; classes available; and gpa. The colleges and universities don't really care what high school you went to. This has been confirmed by many admissions counselors from many different schools. The only difference between a "Competitive" school and a "Public" school in your area is the percentage of students with the expectation of attending 4 year colleges and more selective colleges and universities. With more and more schools having the "IB" program and a full assortment of AP Classes, the so called "Competitive" high school is become less significant and more of a status symbol. Don't get me wrong; a school made up of 85%+ of students with the desire and expectation of going to a good college when they graduate is an easier school to teach and prepare for the ACT/SAT. The education itself however is not any different. And the colleges really don't care.</p>

<p>When you look at the college's applications; beyond the common app; you see that they are interested in the classes you took. They want to know if they were honors, IB, AP classes. They want to see that you took the most difficult classes available and that you did well in them. They care about you class ranking more in public school than in "competitive" schools because they know that the so called "competitive" school is made up of more focused students. Themselves and their parent's involvement. What they care about is your GPA, Weighted or not, and course load. In theory, you could have a senior class of 300 kids and all could have a 3.9-4.0; a class ranking means nothing here. Again, they care that you got that gpa with honor's classes; AP classes; and the IB program. </p>

<p>I only bring this up because there are a lot of parents out there wondering if they are doing their kid an injustice by not sending them to a private school, or one that some people have referred to as a "Highly competitive school". I know when people mention this that they aren't trying to be smug. They are proud of where they are sending their kid to school and believe they are giving their kid the best education available. I'm just telling the other parents here that you can give your kid the same "Best" education in a public school or other local private school. It's a matter of instilling the right attitude when they are younger; keeping them motivated; and giving them the most challenging classes they can accept. Colleges are looking for diversity, A kid in a public school; in Mobile Alabama; in the IB program; taking additional AP classes; with 2200+ SAT 32+ ACT; and all other things being equal such as EC and sports, probably has a better chance of getting into Princeton than the kid from the private "competitive" school in Connecticut or Massachusetts.</p>

<p>There will always be more students applying to a college than will be accepted. There isn't a thing anyone can do about this. That is part of what makes a certain college "exclusive". How many students THEY TURN DOWN. There are a lot of well versed people out there who have written books on how to get into HYPSMC etc.... The list is endless. It's a fact that legacy does play a role. It's not a guarantee, but it helps. After that; it's what makes you different from everyone else. Most colleges pride themselves on being able to provide a truly diverse learning environment. They do this not only with the classes they offer but mainly from the student body and the open exchange of ideas from these different students. They want students from different countries; different races; different economic backgrounds; different states; men/woman; athletes/arts; etc... You have to find what makes you different and exploit that with the admissions counselor. Forget the GPA/Class Rank/SAT/ACT etc... Every other kid applying has the same numbers as you or your kid does. </p>

<p>If you are applying to HYPSMC etc...; then you need to find what makes you different. If you come from a large city/economic hub where a lot of people apply from, then I'm sorry but you WILL HAVE A HARDER time getting into the school. I can't tell you how many school contacted my son; "Seriously"; not only because his SAT/ACT were good; which many kids around the country were; but because of the state we are from. So few kids from Wyoming apply to those schools that they wanted him to apply. We specifically asked them why they contacted us and how they found out. My son didn't make any applications. They get key searches on scores and where you are from; to include other background information. Once the common application was filled out, the rest was amazing. Also, individual colleges at a university so times REALLY NEED STUDENTS. You can do research and find out that I.e: the school of engineering at Princeton happens to be very low on enrolled students. If you mention wanting that major and college on your application; even though most people put undecided or some LAC major down; you have a much better chance of getting into that university.</p>

<p>Anyway; I hope some of this info helps some of the parents who aren't sure about their kid being able to go to a "Competitive" high school. By all means, don't believe a word I wrote here. Talk to your school's guidance counselors and contact the admissions department at the college/university that your kids are interested in. Believe me, they do actually want to talk to you. You can talk to admissions and ask them directly what type of classes, gpa, etc... they are looking for in their applicants. They will tell you the same thing. They want students who have taken the hardest classes that their school has to offer. They want AP Classes, honors, and the IB program. They want a high GPA in these classes. If you have a gpa of 3.90 and your class rank in below top 10% THEY WILL BE CURIOUS. They want a kid who is well rounded. Does sports, leadership positions, clubs, volunteer work, etc.... Wants a kid that knows what they want in college. Knows their MAJOR. (You can always change that later. They goal is to get in). Ask the admissions department and they will tell you all these exact things. I have spoken directly with no LESS than 25 college admissions departments. They have all said the same thing.</p>

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<p>Christcorp's post generally tracks with my experience. We live in a underpopulated part of an underrepresented state (but not as underrepresented as Wyoming!). There isn't a single private high school or public magnet in the area, only the smallish public high school. Very few APs offered, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who has a clue what "IB" even means -- people have never heard of it before. </p>

<p>The public school does not rank or weight grades.</p>

<p>Yet from our quite small public HS <em>just this year</em> we have seniors going to Harvard, Stanford, Brown, Amherst, Middlebury, Harvey Mudd, Reed, Whitman, Dartmouth..... and those are just the ones I know about. Very few kids from here apply to schools like that, but the ones who do have an amazing record of acceptances.</p>

<p>I think being from a backwater area of the country is nothing but a help. That's not to say that a student going to a very, rigorous competitive high school is necessarily going there just for the sake of getting into college, or that it won't help them get into college. Like many have said, if it's available to a student then it is its own reward in any case. Similarly, a student can get a great education and develop into an very creative and insightful thinker in many different kinds of schools; public, private, magnet, homeschool, etc.</p>

<p>But, yeah... looking at the admission results around here, I've got to think geography is an edge for the best & brightest students in this region.</p>

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<p>First of all, I want to apologize for making it sound like being in the top 10% would be automatic if my son attended a different school. I agree, that might, or might not, be the case.</p>

<p>Also, I'm not concerned about admissions. I understand the GPA/SAT/greatEC's/"taking the most rigorous courses available" thing. Son will be accepted, or not, at various schools primarily based on the above. We have clearly seen kids admitted who are NOT in the top 10% (or whatever, pick your percentage) and kids who ARE in that range NOT accepted by the same school.</p>

<p>The reality for my family is that need-based aid is not going to be available, and so I've been looking at the merit-based aid at various schools. Many of them have the "top 10%" requirement, regardless of grades or SAT scores. Fair enough, it's their game and they make the rules.</p>

<p>The magnet my son attends requires a certain level of standardized test scores and middle school coursework and grades for admission. It is a public school magnet.
Thus, I do think that there are some kids who attend there who end up in the top 20% who might very well have ended up with a higher rank at a different, non-magnet school. So be it.</p>

<p>We'll definitely look at non-institutional aid as well, and try casting our net wide.</p>

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<p>I completely understand where you are coming from mom2three. My daughter also went to a State science/math school (residential) for her last 2 years of high school - to even be considered for the school you had to have a high ACT soph year and be one of the top students from your local high school. She was always a straight A student in her home high school doing mostly AP classes and was easily in the top 10% but that was not the case once she went to the math/science school - all the students in the school were top 10% in their home schools. Not all of them can be the top 10% of the top 10%. I know her grades did hurt her in scholarships especially ones like my husbands company where the decisions are made in a different State (head office) where they would have no clue that her classes were just in a different ball game to what she would have taken in the local high school. All the classes were college level and the credit load was very high - the equivilent of over 24 - 28 hours at college level. </p>

<p>We were quite frustrated when we realized that taking such a difficult path - and believe me she worked very hard - she missed the cut offs for some scholarships. Fortunately the State U she decided on (big crisis of confidence in her abilities after 2 years of feeling - and actually being told on occasion - that she was stupid made her decide not to apply elsewhere) does recognize the difficulty of the school and one of their major scholarships allows students from schools that do not rank to qualify if they have the high ACT required. She is at the honors college and doing well - back to straight As again.</p>

<p>edit: If we had it to do again I don't think we would. There was no opportunity for ECs at the math/science school. At home she was a varsity swimmer and in band which she loved. Part of me knows the experience probably prepared her better for college and probably helps her achieve the grades she is getting now. But part of me feels she is a little burned out and that what she missed out on and the stress of those 2 years (the administration were very unpleasant to the kids who struggled - her class enrolled 76 - only 60 graduated) does not balance the equation. Hind sight is indeed a wonderful thing. But it was never our choice - we were reluctant to let her go there and really wanted her out after the first semester - she is very stubborn and determined.</p>

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<p>My S went to a HS that didn't rank and he was profiled as being in the top 25%. He got into a "safety" school with no merit money. We called and explained the level of his HS. The college reviewed his application and within days sent a letter offering a $17,500 per year scholarship.</p>

<p>My point is that you have to watch things closely when your S or D goes to a HS that is selective in some way. Most colleges will understand enough to look at GPA, SATs, APs etc. and not worry about the class rank or they'll recognize the HS, but if they make a mistake, it's up to you to call their attention to it.</p>

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<p>Good point bjj. Actually the scholarship my daughter got she nearly did not get because it required a high GPA as well as rank and high ACT. Her high school does not do a GPA but someone at the college had taken it upon themselves to calculate a GPA (wrongly as the school had marked their own classes as weighted and not any of the AP classes from her original school) and enter it into the system. First she was declined for the honors program because of this - once the honors advisor relooked at the GPA and calculated it correctly she was accepted. Then we found out the wrong number had also been used negatively in the scholarship process. I was corresponding with the head honcho in the scholarship dept (unusual for me as I am not usually very pushy but I had asked him previously how students from her school were handled in the scholarship process as they had no rank or GPA and he had said the rank and GPA was not considered - just the ACT/SAT score) and commented (pleasantly) about how frustrated we were that her choice to take the hard route and go to xxxx had caused her to miss out on scholarship money (which we very much needed). Once he realised which school she went to he immediately said that coming from xxxx her GPA and lack of rank should never have been a factor. Turns out the kids from her school were not required to meet the GPA requirement because the school is so known for massive grade deflation. But as someone had put their calculation of her GPA on her record it immediately eliminated her from consideration (computer elimination). Once he corrected that she was eligible. </p>

<p>So yes - call attention to it.</p>

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<p>When (if?!?) son is accepted to a school, we'll definitely double-check on its merit aid calculation.</p>

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<p>BJ; the best advice given, you just gave. It's not said as often as it should. "TALK TO THE SCHOOL YOU ARE INTERESTED IN"!!!!!! They are not evil robots. They will tell you what they are looking for. They will tell you how to explain "unique" circumstances. These admissions officers deal with home schooled; magnet schools; schools with the IB program (less than 500 in the country); private schools; public schools; AP classes only; etc... The biggest misconception is that in order to go to an Ivy/West Coast Ivy/top 25 school/etc... is that you had to go to some prestigious private high school. Many of the private high schools are excellent. You son/daughter is going to get a much more rigorous education. They will probably do better on SAT/ACT. They are probably going to be better prepared students for college. Not because the academics are better, just that the attitude at the school is more focused on learning and not dealing so much with kids who don't want to be in school and teachers having to deal with the bottom 10% of the students 50% of the time.</p>

<p>But again; this is not to say that a public school or a more available private school can prepare your child for college. Just about every high school offers some form of advanced classes. Honors, AP, IB, etc... If you've prepared your child from elementary school on to succeed, they will do fine. But most definitely contact the colleges. It is easy to explain not being ranked; weighted/non-weighted grades; etc... My kid's high school doesn't weight classes at all, yet they have a full IB program and diploma curriculum. The school however has their own internal ranking system. A student in the IB program or who has taken at least "X" amount of AP classes; will be ranked higher than a student with the same GPA in traditional classes. Yes; that means there are more than 1 student ranked #1. Our high school has 3 kids ranked #1. All IB students maintaining a 4.0 unweighted GPA. The only way a traditional student could be ranked #1 would be if they had a 4.0 and an IB/AP student was in the 3.8-3.9 area.</p>

<p>Anyway; the colleges will most definitely work with you and explain how to mention these irregularities on your application. Of course, most students/parents don't contact the colleges. Also; fwiw, many of the admissions personnel will also inform you of some of the private scholarships available. Especially if the school doesn't offer Merit Scholarships. Again; ask.</p>

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<p>S1's school included a letter with the school profile, GC rec and transcript explaining his curriculum and other notable things about the HS he attends. S also provided more specific info (he had an Additional Information page that he included in his apps) about the track he took in a couple of subjects that demonstrated extreme strength of schedule.</p>

20

<p>Weighted, my S's GPA was pretty good. UW, not so much. This really hurt for some scholarships, which was unfortunate. Our high school is public, but is pretty competitive at the top. There are not enough teachers able and willing to teach AP classes, but lots of demand for the spots in those courses. Kids are weeded out by their grades and applications prior to course selection, and then they use scare tactics on those who remain in order to get rid of more students. For example, D's sophomore honors English teacher tells kids about the students of hers who had nervous breakdowns from taking the junior AP English. Then, at the beginning of the year, the teachers try to eliminate a few more kids from their classes (in order to reduce their work load and the number of tests and papers they have to grade) through ridiculously difficult tests and grading standards. The smartest kids only get a B or B- the first marking period in some classes. In a few courses, unless you're near genius, you won't be able to get an A even by the end of the year. The AP physics teacher loves to brag that his students who have gone on to MIT tell him that his class was harder than anything they've taken in college. Consequently, a kid can get a C- or D in his class and still get a 5 on the exam.</p>

<p>As others have pointed out, there are many benefits to the preparation offered by these tough schools, such as the ability to earn A's in college. Missed scholarships matter less to kids applying for FA--the colleges just deduct the scholarships from what they would have supplied and you end up where you started anyway. We will probably not push our second to write all those essays, etc. A lot of effort for not much return.</p>