Hundreds, possibly thousands of people do. Many of them won’t admit it. Most of them at least state or imply that GPA and test scores, while not “only” to be considered, should absolutely trump any other element of an application, including geography.
Right. Because you believe it, it must be true. Let’s hear it for Urban Legends.
Because high test scores are a mandate within, at minimum, Chinese, Korean, and Indian cultures (and some others), as a matter of course. For U.S. universities, it’s not needed, let alone essential, to have stratospheric scores. It’s a value there, not here, and prioritized in overseas educational systems. So they assume that it must or “should” be a value here. They don’t “have” to have those scores. They have those scores, then complain bitterly that they have them while some others do not.
And don’t discount that many Asian and non-Asian countries do school or university placement solely based on entrance exams. Think about the A-levels.
And think about getting into kindergarten and HS in NYC.
Let alone professional licensing in many areas.
@epiphany wrote
The Asian kids who didn’t have the “stratospheric scores” get dissed by elite colleges.
In fact, non-white students who want to go to college where they will be in the majority often have a bunch of options. At the extreme, such options may include going abroad for higher education, but for many groups there will be options here. They may have to make trade-offs, but that’s what happens with any choice.
@bogibogi: I called you out for the same reason Hunt and Pizzagirl were making their arguments: You were conflating affirmative action for the sake of diversity (and social justice, but you didn’t acknowledge that) with discrimination against Asians, and like them I don’t believe that’s appropriate. And you went awfully far over the line when you said it was “dumb” not to recognize that applicants could choose to live in Montana but not to stop being Asian, given that, in fact, unemancipated minors can’t choose to live in Montana.
What’s more, many Asian applicants may not be able to stop looking Asian, but if they cared about college applications more than, well, whatever they actually care about, they could easily choose to concentrate on Ancient Greek, say, or playing hockey brilliantly. Those two factors would boost their chances of elite college admission considerably. I don’t think they should do that just to get into “better” colleges, but more of them would get into better colleges if some of them did that.
Also: I respect your family’s struggle with poverty and other forms of adversity, and if I were a college admissions officer I would value that experience. I think actual college admissions officers do. There is still, however, some meaningful differences between your experience and that of many URMs, and they are differences that directly relate to things like college admissions. I don’t know about your family, but for many Asian families (as with many Jewish families) poverty does not eliminate the high value placed on education and educational achievement. Many Blacks and Hispanics, in contrast, grow up in families and/or local cultures in which higher education and high educational achievement are not valued at all, or even discouraged. Sometimes “discouraged” with physical violence, or threats of it. Second, fair or not, the complicity of government and establishment institutions in actively subjugating URMs for much of American history has ongoing political importance. As I posted above, I think Chinese could make similar claims, but they haven’t, at least not effectively. And even if they did, past discrimination obviously didn’t cause as much damage
“It is positively obscene to suggest that there would be anything wrong in some college preferring M to my son notwithstanding his lower test scores and thinner resume. And in fact, that did happen, but less than I thought it would, because M got a lot of rejections.”
I think there can be a bit of a moral dilemma if the story were slightly different. What if a poor white family had a son in the same circumstances as M, who had the same grades and lack of EC’s? Is it still right and good that M would be accepted over the poor white kid, because there were enough rich successful white kids already accepted?
I’m not really on either side of the affirmative action / quota debate, as I think there are good arguments on both sides. At the end of the day people are fighting over a scarce resource (slots at top colleges) and there just aren’t any real “fair” solutions and somebody is always going to get hurt.
In fact I just now remembered that a URM friend of mine in high school got into Stanford while I got rejected. I had significantly higher SAT and GPA scores, tons of EC’s, and graduated 2nd in my class. I wasn’t particularly happy about it in general, but I was still happy for my friend. I think that sums it pretty well, with only one slot for two people somebody was going to be disappointed.
@JHS bogibogi was just repeating the “too dumb for words” phrase that pizzagirl had used in a post that has since been deleted. bogibogi did not come up with that phrase. It was pizzagirl who went over the line.
"And that reasonable person should be rational enough to say, “oh, I’m from NY and it is overrepresented at Harvard, so they chose that kid from Montana. Makes sense.” My point is there is a certain amount of control as to where a person lives. "
No, there really isn’t. A 17 yo can’t control either his race or where he lives.
And anyway, I don’t see people who are complaining about not getting into elite colleges moving to Montana or Wyoming for the advantage when it comes to the next kid. Why is that?
Anyway, there is no problem in this country of smart kids not getting into good schools. They may not be the very small set of elite schools they have their hearts set on, but there’s absolutely no boo-hoo on my part of a smart kid “only” goes to Carnegie Mellon or Carleton instead of Harvard or Amherst. None.
And I’d appreciate not being called anti-Asian given that at this point, unless things change significantly, I think I’m going to have Asian grandchildren :-).
Well, that assumes that the essential “selection” tool is nothing more than a blunt … let’s see the name and imagine how the person looks like! All of this goes to a simplistic narrative that discrimination against certain group does exist --that despite all efforts remain utterly unproven in its appropriate context.
Are there really people who believe that the selection and decisions are based on such a skinny and narrow element? Really after pages and pages of discussions about comprehensive reviews at the top schools? Really!
While it is true that one cannot --and actually SHOULD NOT-- change its race, there is a lot that can be done to offset any potential negatives that are mostly erroneous stereotypes. As has been discussed here, there are a number of elements that have been identified as negative in the sense of the “too much of a good thing” and such elements DO transcend the race element. Have we not heard a lot about the “death” of the BWRK and the renaissance of the angular kid? Have we not heard enough that mere SAT and GPA excellence is NOT enough at schools that routinely reject 19 out of 20 applicants? Yep, that is also 950 out of the 1,000 that are purportedly qualified with numerous that are supposed “shoo-ins”
If one assumes that HYPS received several thousands applications that are essentially carbon copies, why is it so hard to understand that the adcoms will rely on a finer grit of sandpaper! In that “upper crust” of candidates, should we really assume that the defining element is still a high SAT and GPAs, or even the typical collage of a AP (with their high proportion of meaningless resume padding) or should we look at more distinctive elements.
The reality is that race WITHOUT context is a meaningless ingredient. People who feel discriminated want to identify THE simple reason for their rejection albeit that is purely impossible. It is assumed that URM are getting passes on the salient facts of their applications and are accepted because of their race, and for few reasons more.
Nobody can change their race --but can and do attempt to hide-- and they should not. What everyone can successfully do is attempt to present a compelling and honest image of what he or she will bring to the school based on his or her activities and success.
As have many white applicants, black applicants, Hispanic applicants. Between 90% and 95% of applicants to Elite colleges “get dissed.” Welcome to U.S. college admissions.
I suspect most white or Asian kids would not choose to be black, if that were possible.
This reminds me of what Chris Rock says: “None of ya would change places with me! And I’m rich! That’s how good it is to be white!”.
Affirmative action and such was not on my radar when I responded to pizzagirl’s post. I just found it to be terribly rude and in haste responded in kind. Uncouth, I know. I apologize if it was offensive, but still question the double standard.
What solace is this for someone who had similar struggles to mine, but was somehow able to overcome and kick some high school butt and then have to compete with other Asians who might have had more advantages? My parents toiled and sacrificed mightily. Their main focus was putting food on the table so education was really a secondary, albeit important, concern. My siblings all went the community college and then state college route which they paid for themselves. My parents sacrificed even more and sent me to a non-descript private school (because I was their favorite. I’m sure some of you can see why 
). I was probably one of the top students in my high school class. If I was somehow fortunate enough to have attended one of the elite schools, it is clear to me that I would have been woefully unprepared. One could argue that some of these students who struggle with family support or educational support may be better served by going to a community college or a state school where they are not competing with some of the best students in the country and where they could potentially struggle with self-esteem and academic issues. I would say going that route would be a respectable and admirable achievement.
If a parent is forward thinking enough or savvy enough and they think that moving to Montana could bring some advantage, they would be free to do it. However, if I think that being Hispanic could help my kid, how do I make that happen?
I never said you were anti-Asian.
Talk about a Karabelesque challenge in the making! But nothing that will be too hard for a person with a “30 Years CC vet” badge!
@xiggi, #249, I understand. I really do. It’s not going to happen, but I wish race was not considered at all.
Race: a group of people thought to share certain distinctive physical characteristics, such as facial structure or skin color.
If we agree with this definition of race, it is ridiculous that colleges group people based on the way that they look and attempt to keep a balance of those races. It is an imperfect analogy, but in it’s basic premise, it is a ludicrous as if colleges decided to limit the number of red heads or to cap the number of blue eyed blondes or to not accept students who need orthodontia.
The pissing contest of which race is more disadvantaged is really inappropriate. I know plenty of Asians who face discrimination but I can also believe that blacks struggle mightily with prejudices. And as a person who was often discriminated against because of my race, I have greater sympathy for those who may be judged because of race. But is it necessary to compare such injustices? I recently saw a story of the troubles Koreans faced during the LA riots. Police did nothing while rioters and looters destroyed and pillaged 3 square miles of LA. These defenseless storeowners had no support and only violence and hatred came upon them. I wonder how many people truly sympathized. Thankfully the community banded together and, through determination and fortitude, now Koreatown is bigger and better. I imagine that there are plenty of stories of Asians facing such struggles, but we probably don’t hear about them. Just because it is not front page news and just because Asians don’t share the prejudices they face, doesn’t mean their pain is less.
Warning: stereotypes to follow.
Everyone’s screwed.
The suburban white girl from MA who plays soccer, is the editor of the school paper, and volunteers knows she’s in a terribly oversubscribed demographic. Half her class is applying to the Ivies and NESCACs, and even with her 4.0 and strong test scores there’s no way for her to differentiate herself. “If only I lived in a small town in Idaho” she thinks, “I’d have it made.”
The kid from small-town Idaho knows he’s at a disadvantage because his school doesn’t offer AP’s and no one from his school has been admitted to an Ivy League college in 5 years. He points to the kid from a swanky New York private school offering 15 AP courses who obviously has an easier path to the Ivies.
The prep school kid notes that his class is made up of superstars. Even with his 2300 SAT he’ll never crack the top 10% of his class. Terribly unfair, and clearly he’s at a major disadvantage when it comes to elite admissions. If only he attended some mediocre public school across the border in NJ he’d be the valedictorian and he’d have a ticket to Harvard.
The high scoring middle class kid from a mediocre New Jersey school can’t afford to attend his top choices. Sadly, if he were a first gen. black kid from Mississippi his PSAT would have made the cutoff for NMSF and between that and minority scholarships the money would be pouring in.
The kid from Mississippi is trying to do it all on his own. How can anyone expect him to get into a top school when he has a terrible GC and so little support from his parents? If only he were one of those kids whose parents signed him up for Kumon math and Suzuki violin from the age of 4 like those Asian kids he’d be golden.
The Asian kid has read Espenshade’s research and knows she has to score higher and be a better all-around candidate to get into the schools she values, particularly because she’s applying as a STEM major. “Why should I pick a different major ? That Hispanic kid in my class isn’t even in the top 10 and I’m sure she’ll be welcomed to an Ivy with open arms” she thinks.
The Hispanic kid ranked #11 has only been in this country for 5 years. His parents attended college but they don’t seem to have any idea how American college admissions work. He knows he’s way behind all those suburban East Coast kids whose families have populated the Ivies for generations. They’re all legacies, right?
The suburban white girl from MA…
:))
Great post, sue 22.
Some fallacies here…
Her competition within the Asian STEM subset (two subsets, obviously) is tougher than it would be in the overall STEM major competition or even within the overall Asian contingent. She only “has” to score higher because of competition, but not having anything to do with any Espenshade or any other study with a political agenda to it. The contemporary “compulsory” aspect of it is the reality of the competition in any location where there are much fewer seats than there are capable students, which includes most of the top 50 schools in the country. In such situations, scores are one (not the only) convenient reason for elimination. Another reason is overabundance of particular majors at particular schools.
The same thing is true across the board relative to colleges whose applicant pool has advanced in quality over even the last few years. Suddenly, no longer is the acceptance rate 27% but somewhere between 16% and 8%, and a score that would previously admit a student no longer does, strictly because of what is available in the pool and for no other reason.
The same thing was true this year at certain UC campuses, irrespective of ethnicity/nationality. Scores which in the last 2-3 years allowed admission to certain campuses, this year did not. It’s called the reality of what appears on the committee’s desks, and not some grand conspiracy.
Now, as to the question, “Why should I pick a different major?” No one should pick anything other than what he or she wants to pick. Notice I said “wants to pick,” because there’s the kicker. If you think that all Asian declared STEM majors want that major, I have a bridge to sell you. Almost all of my students are Asian. Easily 25-33% of the Asian students I have that declare for STEM are not interested in STEM, either in college or as a career. It is their parents’ decision. How do I know that? The students often tell me directly; sometimes they suggest it indirectly and then it’s confirmed face-to-face by their parents. The brave ones who don’t want STEM ask for my help in finessing the situation, and they get that help. **Most often those are the very students who are admitted to, yes, their (and ultimately their parents’) “dream schools.” Hmm. I wonder why that is. **