Half Asian child: how to apply to college.

@pizzagirl, when I speak of influence, I am talking about those who do know of Harvard and Yale and Princeton and see that it is a good thing and want to participate. I understand that most of the general public is not aware of these institutions and are not blown over with bated breath. I’m ashamed to admit that I didn’t know about them until I had kids myself.

As far as the riots in LA, from my vantage point, they were more than just in the way. They were the targets. And it wouldn’t surprise me if many people felt that they deserved it. In any case, my point was, all races suffer prejudices.

And please, stop being exasperated with me. If my dumb questions/statements bother you, please ignore them. Or better still, be patient with me and enlighten me.

@JHS, that is good news about universities who are doing good. I guess I’m naively thinking that there could be a cultural shift if enough institutions make it a priority.

I think JHS makes an important point about college students as role models for younger (prospective) college students of the same personal background (race, ethnicity). And he is reminding readers here of the importance of a “quorum” – a significant presence – in order to create a community. My daughters went to a private high school which included exactly 4 black students, who were good humored about their low numbers and laughed about it with us. The interesting thing about race and class is that the relationship between them is a little more subtle/complex than people realize. In some cases, race trumps class (as it did in the latter situation; the rich blacks welcomed the very poor black); in other cases it does not. Part of that depends on the local setting (How important economic class is in the particular setting and how important, in turn, that is to social standing, social recognition). When people complain bitterly about well-off URM’s attending elite colleges, the fact of the matter is that class can count as an aspect of social inclusion, at an elite institution, which should not surprise anyone. When I say “count,” I am not implying that those of upper classes are always or usually snobs or excluders. I’m speaking of the comfort level of those in or from a “lower” class, who are self-conscious about their origins and assume exclusion or lack the confidence and skill to finesse the social scene. I have seen this dynamic in person, at an elite U, and I have separately heard my experience confirmed by others, at other elite U’s.

When I started to read JHS’ post, I started to agree with what he was saying about

Until I thought more about it. A wealthy black student from NJ suburb (whose EC is harp) and parents who are lawyer and doctor (a real case) is not going to have any more in common with a black kid from Harlem who is raised by his grandmother. When I meet a Chinese person, I am not going to have a bonding experience just we are both Chinese.

I recently had a dinner with a Chinese colleague. He is currently living in China as an expat, and was an expat in Mexico few years ago. He said his son could identify himself with the Mexican culture and people than with Chinese. I bet you, he probably could bring more Mexican culture to a college campus than his own heritage.

University of Texas is arguing in the Fisher case that they need to be able to create “diversity within diversity.” If the only URMs admitted are poor, then biases that all URMs are poor are confirmed. If poor URM students only mix with other poor URM students, they lose out and vice versa. Will be interesting to see if the court cares for that argument among the other questions considered in that case.

“As far as the riots in LA, from my vantage point, they were more than just in the way. They were the targets. And it wouldn’t surprise me if many people felt that they deserved it. In any case, my point was, all races suffer prejudices.”

Do you think the general white community of LA felt that Korean shopkeepers who were looted “deserved it” just for being Asian and hence Other?

Because your argument to date is that the folks who pull the strings at elite colleges are deliberately suppressing the number of Asians because they’re prejudiced and just don’t like people of Asian descent. Are those folks the same people who support the looting of innocent Korean shopkeepers in a street riot?

"A wealthy black student from NJ suburb (whose EC is harp) and parents who are lawyer and doctor (a real case) is not going to have any more in common with a black kid from Harlem who is raised by his grandmother. "

Except that both of them may have the unique cultural experience of being stopped when driving-while-black, followed around in stores when they were innocently browsing, etc. that their white counterparts may not have.

The fact that colleges have (Insert Ethnicity Here) Student Associations does suggest that regardless of SES, there are some bonds that at least some students want to form with members of their own ethnicity.

And I think wanting at least some quorum is a very valid thing. Look at the thread about colleges for the Jewish B student. A lot of Jewish families don’t want their kid to be the only Jewish kid on campus. I can’t imagine it’s terribly different for many other people. No one wants to have a constricted dating pool (if dating within your origin is of importance, which it may or may not be). No one wants to be “the curiosity” on campus.

Everything is complex. Look at Drake. He could be described perfectly accurately as a well-to-do Jewish kid from Toronto. But he has not had much of a problem relating to a wide spectrum of African-Americans.

And it’s not as though people stick to their own kind all the time, either. Nor do we want them to.

I don’t know much about the issues, but my general understanding is that there is a lot of tension between Blacks and Koreans where the Blacks feel that Koreans are invading their territory. So in this case, I’m not suggesting necessarily that whites don’t sympathize, but rather that within that physical community, there was no love lost. I only brought it up as an example (perhaps a bad one) that there are racial tensions everywhere. And while being black may not be advantageous at times, being Asian isn’t perfect either.

My argument really goes to what @ucbulumnus has mentioned a few times. At elite schools, the majority (white) probably do not want to be overtaken by a minority. In this case, it is Asians because they happen to be considered high-achieving students. I would say those similar feelings would be present if it was any minority who threatened to outnumber the majority.

“And it’s not as though people stick to their own kind all the time, either. Nor do we want them to.”

This is still a hard one. My DD goes to a school that is pretty diverse, but that’s because many of the students are international. The students from Country A do hang out together, and the kids from Country B also group themselves. If you are there during a school day, it is not that noticeable because the students are grouping themselves more by classes and majors, so there will be multiracial and multiethnic groups of students walking between classrooms and to the dining. If you are there on weekends or in the evening, you do usually see students of the same racial group together, like 4 black students walking near the dorms or a group of students speaking another language. The segregation was quite noticeable to me, maybe because I didn’t see it when we were touring. My daughter is the exception as she’s Chinese and I don’t think she even knows any other Chinese American students, just internationals who all hang out together

First, at a number of elite schools, white students are no longer a majority, although they remain the largest single group. Hardly anyone is upset about that. If you break “white” down into its component parts, the element of “white” that has traditionally conferred prestige – WASPs from mainstream Protestant denominations – was surpassed long ago by both Asians and Jews. I’m sure there are people who are upset about that, but they know better than to say anything out loud.

Much more importantly: The issue here is culture, not race. One of the things that’s interesting about this thread is that many of the Asian participants believe that they or their children are being judged or excluded because of their color, and defenders of the status quo like me keep saying no one would do that, it’s all about too many STEM-oriented applicants, etc. As a matter of fact, I do believe that there was – and maybe there still is, although I think colleges are trying hard to counteract it – effectively some discrimination against Asian applicants, but it’s not racial, it’s cultural.

To be blunt: I don’t think anyone really cares if Chinese and South Asian students outnumber whites, but no one in the Elite University administration and no one in the Elite U alumni community thinks that Elite U would be a better place if its student culture resembled that of IIT or Tsinghua University (or maybe, for that matter, Cal Tech). And, frankly, I don’t think many Asian applicants – Asian-American or Asian-Asian – want to attend IIT or Tsinghua, either.

I think there’s been a tendency to reject applicants whose applications give a sense that they are effectively applying to an Asian university, i.e., trying to conform to what they think the university wants, as opposed to trying to figure out what their unique superpower is. Both because the institutions want students who are not conformists, and because admissions staff may believe that kind of attitude about applications signals an approach to being a student that they think would degrade the institution. (All work, no play. Regurgitating lectures. Non-experimental. Hyper-competitive and grade-grubbing.) That applies to Asian and white applicants alike, but I strongly suspect that it’s going to affect a lot more Asian applicants than whites, because one of the things I’ve learned on CC is that it’s hard for some Asian parents (and some of their children) not to see the application process as one of figuring out the selection criteria and conforming to them. And an application that reads like that is an application that’s overwhelmingly likely to be rejected.

So no one intends to discriminate against Asians, but they want to weed out, or at least limit, cultural stances that are often associated with major Asian ethnicities (you know who you are!), and that are probably far more prevalent among Asian applicants than among other groups. And, yes, that kind of thinking can slop over into racism, especially if decisionmakers are looking harder at applications with Asian names or pictures to see if they present those attitudes. And especially if decisionmakers are hypersensitive to those attitudes because they are seeing a huge increase in applications that give off that vibe. But – much as happened with Jews a century ago – they are not so much trying to exclude Asians and looking for the right sort of Asians – the sort whose approach to college resembles the pre-existing Elite U norm, and therefore threatens the status quo least.

In other words – with full irony – I expect the problem of discrimination against Asians to disappear as more Asians do a better job of figuring out the real admission criteria and conforming to them . . . which includes doing a great job of pretending you’re not doing anything of the sort. And stop whining about how their SATs and GPAs are better than everyone else’s, because that gets heard – both on this thread and in the halls of academe – as “We want exam-based admission just like IIT or Tsinghua.”

Judging from the comments we hear so often on CC on how STEM majors are “harder” and how STEM students are “smarter”, I guess many “nerds”, whether they are Asian or otherwise do want to attend an IIT or Tsinghua! That said, if you pay attention, the culture of Elite U’s has changed significantly as STEM is getting more and more attention, and to the direction of being *more" like ITT or Tsinghua. If it is what it takes to stay relevant to the outside world and be more appealing to the next generations of applicants, I think the Elite U will have no problem adapting and changing. Let’s wait and see.

@JHS

What you are effectively saying is that, since many Asian applicants are denied admission because they “conform to what they think the university wants”, they should conform to the “real admission criteria” instead.

How ironic!

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/18419682/#Comment_18419682 lists a few, though many of those are in CA or are engineering heavy (many other elite schools are right at around 50% white, as if they are holding the line there to maintain marketability). See replies #17, #32, #33, #43 of that thread for background of this sub-discussion.

@JHS wrote

Another example of a poster describing how asian applicants are inauthentic, “manufactured”.

So are u proposing that asian kids deliberately throw the SAT, get middling grades, play football and start a tattoo/body piercing club?


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So are u proposing that asian kids deliberately throw the SAT, get middling grades, play football and start a tattoo/body piercing club?<<<

Humm, would that because it is what successful applicants to those sought after schools do? Perhaps time has come to drop those blinders and try to understand what others have been saying WITHOUT malice.

And, while at it, perhaps accept that unsuccessful applicants are not rejected because of who they ARE as much as because of what they did or failed to do.

The jeremiads are not only getting old but veer into the insulting.

I recall reading an article about an Asian kid who got into Harvard. He found out later that he just barely got in. He would have been rejected on the basis of his application, which apparantly was fairly typical with high grades, EC’s, etc. But during the interview he got to talking about his amateur filmmaking, which he hadn’t mentioned on the app. The interviewer was impressed by his passion for his hobby and that swung things in his favor. I think the interviewer’s feedback was that the kid would help to enrich the student body.

I think the takeaway is for kids to follow their own personal passions and interests, not just what they think they need to do to get in. I don’t know about all universities, but at least Harvard appears to care about the overall student culture, not just whether or not a particular individual will succeed academically. So yes, start the tatoo/piercing club if that’s what your child is really passionate about.

Blum made the same argument for not delaying the Harvard lawsuit:

In other words

There are several reasons why I posted the SAT bonus scores for various groups:

To show that Espenshade statistical analysis yielded results that are consistent with what is commonly thought to occur during the admission process at Ivy League schools.

To give a feel for the magnitude of the bias against Asians as compared to other groups.

After reading the Espenshade paper the OP may conclude that it would be prudent to avoid an apparent 75 point SAT penalty against Asians and only designate their race as white if they were applying to Ivy League schools. If the OP was applying to Cal then I don’t think it would make any difference.

I don’t believe that STEM identification explains the bias against Asians students for several reasons:

  1. Computer science and Engineering majors would be more likely to select other colleges such as Cal Tech, Stanford and MIT instead of Ivy League schools.
  2. 25% of Asian students are undecided about their major when they apply to colleges,
  3. Asian students who major in STEM field make up maybe 35% at most for a given major such as CS.
  4. Asian students who excel in STEM subjects also excel in non-STEM subjects.
  5. 75% of college students change their majors at least once during college.
  6. There is a large percentage of non-STEM Asian applicants

With a 5% acceptance rate even if Ivy League schools had a bias against STEM students (which they don’t) they could still select well qualified students from the 25% who are undecided. In addition if the Ivy League selected students according to the major they declare on the common app (which I don’t believe they do) Asian applicants would still be in the minority for each major.


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To show that Espenshade statistical analysis yielded results that are consistent with what is commonly thought to occur during the admission process at Ivy League schools.<<<

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Many think their fishing tales are … believable! Who are the members of this “commonly thought” group?

The research of Espenshade when not spun into something different from the author’s thesis and that disaster of a lawsuit are hardly supporting what YOU think they do.

For the record, it helps to understand the nature and the scope of the released statistics. For starters, most numbers are based on the enrolled students as opposed to admitted students or … applicants. The discussion is mostly about students who did NOT enroll and most of the statistics quoted amount to statistical voodoo and non-sense.