It bothers me when posters characterize Asians as feeling entitled when in actuality it is probably more a sense of disappointment. In general, I think that Asians often feel like outsiders when they come to “your” country. The first generation may be naive about how the process works (no wonder they use high priced counselors) but most acclimate and try to work with the system. I know toooooo many Asians, and not a single one feels entitled to admissions into the elite schools (although some should considering their resume). They all worry and feel thankful when it works out and hugely disappointed when it doesn’t.
It’s hard to have a thread about “Asians” or even “half-Asians” without having everyone start to sling around stereotypes that have nothing to do with any actual people. If anyone says that all “Asian” kids feel entitled, or even that most “Asian” kids feel entitled, that would pretty obviously be wrong. People do say things like that, but they don’t really mean what the words say.
Here’s what I think they mean: Lots, maybe the majority, of Han Chinese, Korean, and South Asian kids and their parents who are most vocal on CC complaining about discrimination against Asians at elite colleges write as if they feel all college admission should be based on stats, or maybe based on stats and very standardized ECs. They imply that there is a natural, objective formula for college admission which is only departed from to avoid admitting more Asian applicants (and to do affirmative action for other minorities). Even that is maybe an over characterization, but there’s more than a grain of truth in it.
“But teachers, and the general public, tend to think they do, and also see which kids are not as good at gym or not as interested in gym and tend to encourage STEM for them”
?? Since when does the gym teacher who sees Johnny is kind of a klutz and gives him a C in gym tell Johnny to go study chemistry instead?
This is very naive thinking. Asian families who can afford full pay(and major development), they know exactly how the game is played in the US because they have spent the time and money to do their research. They are not on CC to gain information, they pay for their information. It is no wonder the wealthiest students at most universities are internationals. It is the second generation Asians, who believe we should be looked at without any race/sex bias, are saying it is unfair to judge people by the way we look.
"My clueless son did not know what an Asian was until middle school when we had to explain it to him. "
I didn’t know I was white until I was about 12. My parents could not convince me, because my mom was white but my dad was the color of a brown paper bag. They couldn’t convince me he was white, and it took a very tiny bit of digging to decipher the multiracial heritage and talk about it freely, even if my parents refused. Doris Day is white. Ronald Reagan was white. Jimmy Carter is white. Sitting Bull was not white. Richard Pryor was not white.
Did I get advantages growing up white? No, I got discrimination because I am brown. My siblings who weren’t as dark and didn’t have as Asian features did not get discriminated against as much - the lightest ones even made fun of my skin color (“wrong hole” jokes). Same with my children, the whiter ones have a much freer ride, except that I don’t look like their parent. Clearly black and clearly Hispanic is okay and as much help as possible for those students. Multiracial means easy to discriminate against.
I just hope, whatever background anyone is, they feel comfortable with how they want to relate to society about it. No one has a right to your background if you don’t want to share it. For that matter, no one has a right to your gender identity if you don’t want to share it.
And yes by the way, I wear glasses and when in school, was clumsy at an early age. I was not encouraged in sports, and was good in math and science. I was encouraged to consider STEM careers. When I played JV and varsity sports in HS, it became easier to shed the nerd image, but it was only because I went out of my way to pursue sports (against my teachers and my parents’ recommendations), plus in general it was easier for a girl to pursue HS sports.
@rhandco, my point was that my kid was privileged to be unaware of race up until that point. Many of my Asian friends said the same thing. The first time their kids had to fill out one of those questionnaires, they had to come home and ask because they didn’t know. I got a good chuckle out of it and thought it was a beautiful thing. Sorry that you faced discrimination. That really is my point in this thread: It’s not cool to judge someone based on the way they look.
@bogibogi - were your kids really unaware of race? I have to say my kids were fairly privileged, but they knew they were half Asian and they were different. We celebrated Chinese holidays, as well as their other heritages. When they looked at themselves in the mirror, they knew they looked different, not to say they weren’t proud of their differences, but they knew they were different. Growing up, they were “discriminated,” but they were also “sought after” because of their exotic looks. Hard for me to believe a non-white kid wouldn’t be that self aware for 17 years until they had to fill out one of those questionnaires.
“As I’ve said in other threads, I think some Asian families mistakenly believe that the same strategy that gets you into a top university in their home country will also work in the United States. When they learn that this isn’t true, they say that it SHOULD be true.”
“This is very naive thinking. Asian families who can afford full pay(and major development), they know exactly how the game is played in the US because they have spent the time and money to do their research.”
I think Hunt is talking about a different circle than you are. I think both statements are true - just applied to different universes. I certainly agree the Asian families who can afford full pay / development are often very savvy about how the game is played in the US.
Living this out in real life and I can shed light on a few things. Indian parents (for the most part) absolutely prioritize fields of study that will lead to high income jobs. When that was Engineer - they all became Engineers. It has also always been medicine. If you are smart in India, you will be guided into those careers. Parents worry about the kids being able to support themselves in the best possible way. The whole “follow your passion” idea is NOT a big seller in India even now. So you have families that prioritize schooling, prioritize math and science, and are also very status conscious. This will inevitably lead to a very high number of Indian- American kids applying to the top 20 colleges and studying in those areas. Admission in some of the top schools in India is 0.33 percent. Yup, you read that right. So schools that have a 5% or a 7% admission rate in the US don’t seem that out of reach for a first generation Indian-American family.
And like almost everyone, families struggle to quantify what makes a student a good applicant for a particular school. In India it is all a numbers game (and a who you know game.) If you take out the chance to “influence” the admissions office you are just left with numbers. So I am sure there are families who come out of that system who feel that the system in the US is not transparent, not predictible and not fair as a result.
IMHO, the best way to deal with these factors is to highlight the many wonderful colleges and universities that do not get the media attention of a HYPS type school. What many immigrant families don’t understand about the American educational system is that we have a MUCH deeper list of really excellent schools than most other countries.
Why don’t they understand it, though? Why isn’t there cultural transmission to the newbies? Expats to other countries seem to have cultural transmission vehicles so they can be made aware of differences and nuances.
There is a willful blindness to it, IMO.
@oldfort, yes it is hard to believe, but true. We live in a very diverse area so my kids just thought that any differences were normal and it surprised them that there were different categories of race. They just considered themselves to be American. And when I speak of privilege, I mean that they were lucky. And it was in middle school (maybe 12-13), not as 17 year olds. Maybe my kids were just really clueless?
As an expat to India I can guarantee that there was no cultural transmission vehicle to help me understand the differences and nuances of the Indian educational system. After 9 years here…the Indian higher education system is still all Greek to me. It makes no sense to me. It seems much more complicated than necessary. It seems terribly unfair and very stressful to the students. I come to it with my own knowledge and baggage from having gone through the US higher education system. I don’t see how I can be expected to put aside my background. And immigrants to the US can’t really be expected to either.
No kidding. I can’t never understand the A and O levels from the UK system. It doesn’t matter how many times it was explain to me.
And here it is even worse! There are different curriculums (central syllabus, state syllabus, international syllabus, etc.) for the high schools. Then you have different entrance exams for different types of universities. Then you have individual entrance exams for each university. A friend’s son just took almost 15 separate entrance exams for medical schools here. Then, based on your rank from your exams you are given a number and seats for universities around the state are allocated based on the rank. He “turned down” seats in dental schools and engineering schools but is not able to get a seat in a medical school. Parents and kids are SO stressed and suicide rates among students so high here that I have to feel there is a better way.
This is laughable. How many expats do you know really?
I know many expats (whites) who spent one or two decades in foreign countries (non-white) and can’t even speak the local language let alone have knowledge of any cultural nuances. They send their children to international schools and their lives evolve around the expat community. Just read any expat blogs, especially those who are located in Asia and Africa.
The ones who take time to assimilate into the local community are the exceptions.
^^@cbreeze
I resemble that remark. The last 2 foreign postings I just gave up and didn’t bother learning the language-- foreign language fatigue. I can’t even count to 3 in the local language now.
Well, if you argue that expats don’t actually have cultural transmission vehicles, you’re really strengthening the argument that immigrant families are erroneously following the wrong strategy for admission to top US colleges, because they are doing what worked in the old country. I may be naïve in some respects, but I have seen this again and again here on CC, and also in real life in a high school that had a lot of high-performing kids from immigrant families. I saw repeatedly the kid who was required to practice the violin and piano and to study for hours, while being discouraged from other extracurriculars. Some of these kids had disappointing college admissions results. Those families are certainly free to value whatever activities they prefer–but there are consequences for not following the norms of the culture in which you are living.
There are just as many Americans who are not as sophisticated when it comes to college process. Most top 1% are fairly savvy because they have a lot more resource at their disposal, no different than those wealthy Asians.
This is true. They may make different mistakes, though.
Yes, for instance I’ve seen families who are shocked to find that their child, the star of the high school soccer team, is not recruitable, not realizing that soccer players are a dime a dozen in college admissions and that only the true standouts will receive athletic scholarships.