USC’s Writing for TV & Film program yields multiple employment offers in the industry for each graduate, but it is quite difficult to get admitted into this 4 year program.
USC has other programs for creative writing that are outstanding. USC also combines some majors with a minor in business.
I agree that majoring in creative writing is not necessary for one targeting a career in editing & publishing. But, since the thread inquired about “creative writing”, I responded accordingly.
A larger sample size that one may get by using the whole college instead of specific majors is worse than useless if it brings in irrelevant data, such as the economics graduates who go on to Wall Street jobs or CS graduates who go on to software jobs, if these majors and post-graduation destinations are not relevant to the student in question.
To realistically chart out a career path my D22 has looked at positions where she eventually would like to land and noted the colleges, degrees, and employment experience of people in those positions.
My guess is that a degree in English, communications/marketing would be better than creative writing. I would imagine those degrees would better suit entry level positions. She could work for the college magazine/newspaper to hone skills and be able to show writing samples. Internships would seem to be key so I would ask Hamilton and UT Austin what inroads they’ve made in the sector you’ve identified.
Since it hasn’t been mentioned, half of the students at Hamilton represent full-pay families, of whom many are not wildly rich. The appeal of the experience there, including its less tangible aspects, may be manifested by this group. Texans, by the way, arrive from the eighth most popular state in Hamilton’s most recent class (after Florida and before Virginia).
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On this note, a NYT report from a few years ago provides a reasonably detailed breakdown of socioeconomic diversity at each college.
Hamilton
Median parent income – $208,600 (#17 of 2395 colleges)
Students from top 1% – 20% (#18 of 2395 colleges)
Students from top 5% – 48%
Students from top 10% – 59%
Students from top 20% – 72% (#25 of 2395 colleges)
Students from bottom 60% – 13.8%
Students from bottom 20% – 2.2% (#2346 of 2395 colleges)
UT Austin
Median parent income – $123,900 (#188 of 2395 colleges)
Students from top 1% – 5.4% (#175 of 2395 colleges)
Students from top 5% – 23%
Students from top 10% – 38%
Students from top 20% – 56% (#202 of 2395 colleges)
Students from bottom 60% – 27.7%
Students from bottom 20% – 6% (#1805 of 2395 colleges)
Where is the rough break for full pay at Hamilton? Top 10%?
According to this site, a household family at $210k would be top 10%.
College Navigator - Hamilton College says that 55% at Hamilton get grant or scholarship money, so that leaves 45% at full pay. Since the top 5% parent income accounts for 48% according to post #45, the 45% full pay is probably a close approximation of the top 5%.
For a deeper analysis, you may want to consider the cost of living in the most common states of origin for Hamilton students: NY, MA, NJ, CA, CT, PA, FL, TX, VA and IL (in order, for the class of 2025). Half of the entire class of 2025 receive need-based aid.
Need awards may be a few thousand to 100% of costs. It’s hard to get more color about demographics from the stat than that. And while a “well off” family with one child in school may not qualify, one with two or three may. It’s tough to work out family income from an FA statement like that.
Comparing the household income levels of a state flagship (especially one in a large, social economic diverse, with auto admission based by school rank state) vs a small expensive NE private LAC is comparing apples to oranges. The demographics of those that apply and can afford to go to these 2 schools are very different.
For OP’s purposes, there are other huge differences which IMO overshadow social economic diversity, size (physical and student), resources, geography (cold vs warm, urbanish vs rural, South vs NE), campus culture. The question is if there is an environment that fits OP’s daughter better. It sounds like to me both schools are affordable to OP’s family, so it’s about which environment will best set up OIP’s daughter. We can’t answer that because we don’t know the daughter. Some kids thrive in a small intimate environment. Others need the stimuli of a lot of action. This goes beyond preparation for any writing related career, which choice can easily change.
I agree with almost all of your post except the assumption that one cannot have a small, intimate environment at a National University. This type of atmosphere can be encountered at elite private National Universities and at large public Honors Colleges / Programs if one chooses to pursue it.
Of course, it will not be intimate in the overall environment, but there are many housing, class, majors /schools, research, and activities at National University where one can experience a small, intimate environment within the confines of a large university setting.
I agree, and in fact some would argue that you can get the best of both worlds in a public honors program or a top private National. Not all honors programs are created equal though with respect to academics or campus/residential environment.
I think a big part of the unique “intimacy” in a LAC is the residential situation where most students live on campus (such as Hamilton) and the class as a whole is small enough that a student ends up knowing a majority of their classmates. If I look at UT’s honors programs, which are some of the better ones, the honors housing quad only accommodates 500 students for all the honors programs. According to the Plan II website, only 40% of incoming freshmen in Plan II live in honors housing. I suspect as upperclassmen, honors students pretty much fend for themselves as any undergrad at UT, although it looks like some social space is set aside. There are some classes/requirements but the rest of the courses are taken from the general university offerings. Looking again at Plan II, it is 1/3 specific, 2/3 general. Some might well prefer this structure, but it is inherently different than a true LAC.
if I understand your position, you are equating small LACs like Hamilton College to a private prep high school environment and showing the University of Texas at Austin Plan II Honors as offering the best of both worlds in that one experiences both an intimate environment while also being exposed to many other growth experiences.
I agree and I think that this is a major reason why, for example, a junior year abroad option is almost necessary at small LACs. Otherwise the environment can become a bit claustrophobic.
In several respects, attending a small LAC that is not in a consortium is like choosing to live in a small town where everybody knows one another & everybody seemingly knows each other’s business. Attending a school like the University of Texas is more like living in a vibrant city with the opportunity to enjoy and explore new experiences while still developing close personal relationships based on one’s interests.
Some are ready to grow in more ways than others during the ages of 18 to 22. Some need comfort & security, while others crave growth, diversity & variety of new experiences.
Once a prospective student understands the smallness & familiarity of a small LAC as well as the bigness, complexity, and challenges of attending a large public university (such as Texas), choosing between the two options should be fairly simple. I think that many romanticize LACs while remaining unaware of the wealth of options and opportunities at a large, diverse school like the University of Texas.
In short, one can make a large school small, but one cannot make a small school large.
I use the same analogy about UT being a big city with lots of great neighborhoods. It’s not like you see 50,000 people at once (except on football game days, which are awesome). My neighborhood was the civil engineering building. I got to know the small group of Architectural Engineering majors and professors. Several of my profs were among the select group of engineers inducted into the National Academy of Engineering. The other benefit to a large school is that if you decide to switch majors (which almost all my friends did), you can find just about any major you want. I wouldn’t trade my experience at UT for any other school. Austin is a great city - one reason it’s grown so much is that UT students decide to live there after graduation. I would have, too, if oil prices hadn’t dropped the month I completed my graduate degree.
Excellent point. Lost in many such discussions are the connections that parents of elite college kids having coming in to college. Placement offices post about their successful grads, but many of these kids came in with familial connections that would have given them successful outcomes no matter what college they would have attended.
Yes, pretty much, but I think using a high school comparison has some negative connotations to me. I think the better analogy is some people prefer and will enjoy life to the fullest if they live in a big city, others if they live in the suburbs with easy access to the big city while others prefer a small town environment. Further these preferences may change depending on which stage you are in life. There is nothing inherently superior or inferior about any of these environments as they each have pluses and minuses which are weighted differently for each individual. My D is a good example. She attended a NESCAC. She is a private person who has always had a small social group of very close friends. She found 2 profs who mentored her through college, giving her paid research internships. The experience and connections she made were enough to get her a research job at a well known institute in her field. She did not need to graduate from a national research university. She is now getting her PhD at a National public research university in a major US city. Where to after this will be based on her career objectives. Successful paths are different for each person, and some may very well succeed no matter the path. My guess based on D’s personality, going to our flagship would not have yielded the same outcome, the honors program, maybe, but the fit was still better at the NESCAC.
@MaineLonghorn has valid points. Big schools are like big cities. You make a life and community in them, not of them.
But to play devil’s advocate, one of the things many students like about LACS is that your “world” is rarely defined by your major. The whole small town is your small town… They are, by design, intended to nurture thinking across disciplines, not just in the classroom but in the community. And while they may not offer all the majors a state flagship will, it is often easier to access classes outside your major or primary interest because there are not the “gates” of having to be in a particular school to take the classes there.
As everyone has said above, this really comes down to what kind of experience your D wants and how good she is at chasing down opportunities. At LACS, you may not need to work as hard to make connections and win opportunities. At a public, there may be more of them, but you may need to work harder to find them and win them.
Neither is a clear winner for everyone.
Regarded by spatial aspects, Hamilton’s campus, with several distinct areas and 1,35O acres, offers a variety of atmospheres for living, dining, studying and playing, which wouldn’t be evident from looking at its enrollment. UT’s campus, it might be worth noting, is actually smaller than Hamilton’s, at 437 acres.
Agree that just "high school’ does carry some unintended negative connotations; I changed it to “private prep high school” which I think better portrays my intended meaning which is not intended to be negative.
I upset one poster recently by writing that DIII athletics is a continuation of high school athletics. I did not mean tat to be a negative comment as DIII schools give talented, committed high school athletes a chance to continue on in a sport or even in multiple sports without having to resort to club or intramural play.
@merc81: Interesting point, although there are a couple of counterpoints which make the University of Texas at Austin more like a city due to far greater number of everything other than formal campus acreage.
While it’s true that you can’t make a small town bigger, the OP has the rest of her life to live in a big city, if she’s going into publishing. LACs represent a kind of breather between the hot house atmospheres of many feeder high schools and the hot house atmospheres of high impact careers in the big city. So much depends (as I said upstream) on the OP from whom we have not heard in 5 days.