Hard Decisions! What do you think?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
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<p>Williams is a “very risky” proposition for the student who wants to go to graduate school afterwards. The reason is that some members of the Williams community are still in love with the “booth camp” method of education. If you do not work very, very hard, Williams will kill your GPA. So if you want to go to medical school after Williams, certainly you can, but it is not what people are saying here that you can go there and explore and learn. No. If you go to Williams and want Med School you will need to be a GPA management expert, which means that at Williams the explore and learn will need to be replaced by go find those Professors and course that will not kill your GPA.</p>

<p>Williams booth camp approach has other negative effects. It is hard for students who love some ECs to find the time to dedicate themselves to it. This makes ECs at Williams less fulfilling than at other less-demanding schools. Want to take some language classes for fund and get some skills? At Williams, forget about it. They have the approach that either you do it “for real” or you don’t. It seems they do not want to encourage dilettantism.</p>

<p>Think I am exaggerating? Go to the registrar webpage and check their policies about academic standards and regulations. Very student unfriendly. For example: “A senior [college student] who incurs a failure in the first semester in a required major course may be dropped from the College at midyear.” </p>

<p>People will tell you that articles prove that Williams send a ton of students to the top graduate schools. This is indeed true. The question for you is “do I feel lucky?” If you are a risk taker and think you can get a good GPA in very challenging conditions, then go ahead, go to Williams, and go to Med school afterwards. If you are risk averse, however, think twice and take the assured option.</p>

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<p>disagree with ARobot. Williams does not have the highest or second highest four year graduation rate of any college or university in the country because, as he suggests, it is weeding out kids via unreasonable requirements or grading policies. The average GPA at Williams is around a 3.3-3.4. If you perform at a slightly above average level at Williams and perform well on MCATs, you will have your choice of excellent med schools. Yes, you can’t totally slack off at Williams and get into med school, but I expect (and certainly hope) the OP isn’t hoping to slide into med school without working hard. And if he did, well, he wouldn’t be ready to succeed in med school or as a doctor. Just getting admitted to med school is not the end all and be all of life. Going to Williams will almost certainly better prepare you for the rigors or med school, residency, and so on than UC San Diego. And I can’t imagine that anyone who wants to be a doctor is averse to hard work. IF they are, they should consider an entirely different profession, as the amount of work it takes to get, say, a 3.7 GPA at Williams isn’t even closely comparable to how hard you have to work at a medical residency.</p>

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<p>Mythmom and all, I think OP either left the room or is a ■■■■■.</p>

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<p>Ephman in a sense proved my point.</p>

<p>Are you risk averse and want to go to a booth camp where professors cling to old-school realities that booth camp is good for you because it “better prepare you for the rigors or med school, residency, and so”, go there. </p>

<p>I think that articles such as these on The Williams Record give some hint about the situation there:</p>

<p>[I?m&lt;/a&gt; not fine either ? The Williams Record](<a href=“http://williamsrecord.com/2011/03/03/im-not-fine-either/]I?m”>http://williamsrecord.com/2011/03/03/im-not-fine-either/)</p>

<p>[Effortful</a> imperfection ? The Williams Record](<a href=“http://williamsrecord.com/2010/04/14/effortful-imperfection/]Effortful”>http://williamsrecord.com/2010/04/14/effortful-imperfection/)</p>

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<p>It’d boot camp, not booth camp.</p>

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<p>Indeed you are correct, mythmom. I have no problem acknowledging that.</p>

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<p>ARobot-- my DD is there and while she works hard she is not a grind and had a very fine GPA. Williams requires that students are efficient and smart-- but, so does medical school (I know). Williams’ med school placement is excellent and if you work hard you will be at medical school.</p>

<p>But hey, don’t go. There are lots of great kids on the WL who would give their eye teeth for your spot, so it’s no big deal if you go elsewhere. Williams will do well either way.</p>

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<p>Etondad-- I am not the person deciding whether or not to go to Williams. I am the person who advised the student who got for sure admission to UCSD Med school to choose this option over the more risky proposition of going to Williams + apply Med school later.</p>

<p>You know Williams, I know it too. It is a great institution with a great tradition, no doubt about it. But it is also true that in preserving those traditions, they make things unnecessarily student unfriendly. They have this view that “we are a top school” and this justify them adopting some very inflexible policies just because “it is the way it is”.</p>

<p>In addition, as you say, many students want to go to Williams because of their rankings. This makes it more difficult for Williams to recruit faculty than to recruit students. Consequently, faculty are very powerful at Williams, and such power allows them to adopt their ways quite uncontested by the administration, even if they end up harming students. Ways that may include, for instance, adopting a sink-or-swim approach that weed out students by dispensing very low grades. </p>

<p>To be sure, some faculty there believe that there is grade inflation, and thus they feel that it is their own responsibility to curb it. So they may give bad grades to the student who performed okay, just not at the top. These are the dangerous risky faculty who are nevertheless supported by the College. Other faculty are more in tune with modern realities and understand that Williams is selecting top students in the nation, and it is unfair to invent a level of disparity in student grades that is not there.</p>

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<p>ARobot, The environment that you describe sure isn’t the Williams my son attended. He was supported by his professors every step of the way and even now, going on six years post graduation can rely on them for advice and recommendations. </p>

<p>As I mentioned above it is very difficult for a teenager to predict what s/he may regret later in life and regret and risk are two sides of the same coin. Who’s to say that turning down Williams and its potential door-opening opportunities wouldn’t be a greater risk than turning down UCSD and guaranteed medical school admission? </p>

<p>Only the OP can make that decision, and the negatives that you’ve raised may be valid at other schools, but not, in my opinion, Williams.</p>

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<p>Reading this post with interest. I’m a Williams graduate and my daughter currently a sophomore, chemistry major and premed. She is working her butt off, learning a ton and having a challenging but rewarding experience. She has developed good relationships with many chem professors and offered a summer research position in chemistry dept this June. Her experience has been very positive and contrary to Arobots posts.
I think the opportunity to spend four years in this type of environment is priceless.</p>

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<p>My son did have some of the problems ARobot is describing. The Classics Department was quite unforgiving, and he was stuck in situations that wouldn’t have happened at my daughter’s college.</p>

<p>I think the level of discourse at Williams is amazing, and my son loved his school. However, I do think the advising is weak in many departments, and he did fall through the cracks in a way that broke my heart and still makes me sad when I think about it.</p>

<p>This is the first time I have written anything like this, but I don’t think we need to paint with too broad a brush.</p>

<p>The Gaudino option is a ridiculous way to encourage experimentation. There is no true pass/no credit option at Williams, and it is very difficult to walk back some choices.</p>

<p>That said, my son received a wonderful education and found his true vocation.</p>

<p>And all of you whose children sailed through and did not face these difficulties, I would not deny your experiences, I congratulate you and your children, but there are some holes at Williams.</p>

<p>I will say that my son is now the best educated person in a competitive masters, and is now thriving, but there were some rocky spots there.</p>

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<p>Williams is of course very competitive academically. And like at ANY college or university, some people are going to struggle at times. </p>

<p>But what ARobot is saying is simply not reflective of reality, at least when comparing Williams to other peer institutions. Williams is just not a place that tries to grind you to death, or weed people out. Again, if it was, it wouldn’t have among the highest graduation rates in the country, year in and year out! Now of course, things won’t go as smoothly as optimal for some people in some departments at some times, but that is true at every college in the country … the only real way to compare is to check (1) relative graduation rates (where again Williams ranks above nearly other school) and (2) relative grade inflation, where Williams is typical among its peers, and certainly not unusually punitive in the aggregate. </p>

<p>To the extent Williams can improve, it’s more sins of omission as Mythmom is alluding to (academic and career advising have never been particular strong suits) rather than sins of commission (professors with an agenda whereby they actively want to see students weeded out or punished with bad grades) as ARobot is suggesting. Most of the professors on the contrary are at Williams, rather than a larger university, because they feel invested in their students’ success. </p>

<p>Look at the average GPA at Williams … you’d think it would be a 2.5 or something based on what ARobot is saying. It’s typically more like a 3.3-3.4 (B plus / A minus). Are there SOME professors who grade tougher than others? Of course, like at any place. But that evens out with profs who grade easier. Moreover, if you are obsessed with your GPA, Williams is small enough that it is pretty easy to hear from other students which profs are easier graders, and which profs harder. You will know or be able to talk to another student who has had a class with virtually every prof on campus, and unless you are in a very small department, be able to avoid most of the ones who you have no interest in taking a class with. This is not what I’d recommend basing your course selection on to any significant degree, but it’s not like this information is a total mystery. </p>

<p>Granted, I am sure it would be substantially easier to get a 3.5 GPA at most huge state universities than at Williams. But again, I don’t know anyone who chose medicine because it is the easiest path in life. If you want an easy path, my first advice would be, don’t become a doctor. I can say from my own experience, I got accepted at a top five law school without earning an inordinately high GPA from Williams (barely above average, actually), and while doing a million different campus activities and having a vibrant social life. And more importantly, I feel I was FAR more prepared to succeed in my first year of law school than many of my peers. And not just me … the top two guys in my graduating law school class were Amherst and Pomona alums. I noticed in general that the small liberal arts grads I knew in law school (and not just grads of top-10 LAC’s) all seemed to have a pretty easy adjustment, and that was thanks to the rigor and individual focus of the education we received.</p>

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<p>Again, Ephman</p>

<p>I am not saying that Williams = bad GPA. What I am saying is that Williams = high risk that something really bad can happen, and because of this the student need to become a GPA manager, in particular if the student wants to go to Med school afterwards.</p>

<p>Let me explain by parts. I share the perception that advising is bad, in particular comparing with other top LACs, so I will not comment further on this.</p>

<p>About graduation rates. First, remember that Williams is selecting top students in the nation, so you need to compare graduation rates among their peers. Second, Williams have this quite nice way of working their curriculum that almost forces the student to graduate in 4 years. Just take 4 courses every semester (and the Winter Study), that you will graduate in something because essentially the student only need 9 courses to secure a major. This is a positive for Williams, but does not mean that students have high graduation rates because they are succeeding in every course they take. Students may earn quite a few Ds and still graduate in 4 years. These Ds, however, would hurt very much when applying to Med and top graduate schools.</p>

<p>The average Williams GPA is on par with some of its peers, but the problem is not the average GPA. The problem is that indeed the student needs to become a GPA manager to secure this. The problem is compounded because many, not a few, many faculty have this outdated no-back-down mentality. Further, the school will almost always support the professor over the student, thus if the student is in a dire situation, the school will not help the student out. Got an unfair grade. It is your problem.</p>

<p>What this means is that most of the beauty of a liberal art school is erased. Some previous posters encouraged the OP to go to Williams and explore. Well, fine if the student wants to explore and take “Looking at Jazz” kind of courses. But what if the student wants to take a foreign language course? Then the student is out of luck, because the student better be near fluent to begin with as the grading will be something like this: Those who spent a few years in the foreign country and already know quite a lot: A. Those who never been in the foreign country but studied the language in high school: B, maybe B+ if they studied a lot in HS. Those who never studied the language but now want to learn about it: D or even E. This situation may happen with language courses and with other types of courses as well.</p>

<p>Williams seems to be content with this. If you look at the Gaudino option, a student who signed for this option cannot use if the grade is lower than B-. What crazy thing is that? So if you got a B in a course (a perfect acceptable grade that will not destroy your chances to a top graduate school) than you can use the option, but if you got a D (a grade that will destroy your chances) than you cannot use it? Will anybody truly advocate that this is student friendly? It is more that the institution is happy to see your Cs and Ds and Es in the transcript.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is this. At many other institutions, students can retake courses, use pass/fail, and drop/add courses with quite a bit freedom. Not at Williams. Williams does not help you clean up eventual problems that may emerge. This is why risk is a good definition. Some times people get bad outcomes due to random events. If it does at Williams, it is the student’s problem, Not Williams’. </p>

<p>That’s why I say again that unless you become a GPA manager, Williams = high risk, because something really bad can happen… and if it does, you are out of luck, because none will help you.</p>

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<p>We will have to agree to disagree. I strongly, strongly disagree that if you work hard at Williams (not unreasonably hard, but certainly a few hours a day outside of class) that there is a “high risk” of getting hammered with grades below a C in ANY class. Therefore, there is simply no need to be a “GPA manager” to earn a good GPA at Williams. Across-the-board grade inflation has already done that job for students. To the extent a few profs are particularly hard and/or highly disparate graders, again, students can find out about those profs before they take a class easily enough, but because profs typically WANT students to enroll in their classes and WANT good evaluations, they have a powerful disincentive against grading that is far outside the Williams norm. And the Williams norm is to rarely, rarely give any grade below a C range in a class. Many classes I’m sure have a B minus or B as the lowest grade given in the class. </p>

<p>The average GPA at Williams would not be in the 3.3-3.4 range, and more than 90 percent of kids would not be graduating, if there were many D’s, or even really many C’s, being handed out. And actually failing a class, short of cheating and being caught, is nearly impossible. To the extent I was aware of any of my close friends’ grades (and none of my friends graduated summa or anything like that), I never heard of ANY of them getting a single grade below a C plus. The vast majority of grades in most Williams classes cluster around the B to A minus range. It’s often quite difficult to get an A, but it’s often quite easy to get at least a B minus. Generally, if you are getting below a C, you aren’t going to class, aren’t doing the assigned work, etc. I’m not saying it’s never happened that someone went to class, did the work, and still got a bad grade, but it’s relatively rare, and certainly not something to fear as a “risk”. and honeslty, if you are struggling in a class, mos tof the profs at Williams care enough to work with you to help you succeed. </p>

<p>The same risk certainly exists at, say, UC DAvis. IN fact, I’d say at a big university, where profs don’t know students individually and frequently grade on a strict curve, the risks of getting several low grades (which would knock his GPA below 3.5, eliminating the entire point of CHOOSING UC Davis in the first place) is higher than at Williams. </p>

<p>Here’s what it comes down to … the risk of working hard enough to get above a 3.5 at UC Davis while, with the same level of work put in, getting such a low GPA at Williams that no medical school will accept you, is very, very low. Not zero, but low. I just don’t think that you should be making a choice based on such a sliver of risk. Especially if you want to enter an occupation that by its very definition requires people to work a LOT harder than the average Williams student works as an undergrad, merely to survive, let alone thrive.</p>

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<p>Ephman, I usually agree with you but not this time. My kid has had three C’s and I promise you she went to class and beat herself up plenty for not being able to do better in those classes. Like all her peers at Williams, she was the perfect student in high school. She’s balanced it out with a lot of A-/B+ but has found it difficult to get an A. She definitely learned to play to her strengths so her GPA could recover. She has friends who have failed classes, and who have withdrawn from classes and had to take five the next semester. She has found her professors to be supportive and helpful but they aren’t going to give out a B if you earned a C. The work can be very difficult, especially for those coming from mediocre high schools. Yes, a very high percentage do graduate on time, but some arrive there struggling and with the GPAs to prove it.</p>

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<p>

That was my son’s experience. Getting A’s (usually A minuses) became easier after firstyear, maybe due to the rumored strategy of the tougher first year curve, maybe due to getting deeper into your major, maybe just general acclimation to the Ways of Williams.</p>

<p>

I would take exception to this statement. First, bad things do happen to good students at good schools, all of them. Sometimes a there are stumbles that the college can’t catch. </p>

<p>And, yes it’s possible to have a falling out with a professor even at a student-friendly college like Williams. Grading and evaluating is, at the end of the day, human and subjective and what’s fair to the instructor may not be perceived as fair to the student. </p>

<p>But to say that no one will help you, is simply not true. There are many support mechanisms in place, and in my son’s experience much more proactive interference from the faculty than you would expect at a larger more impersonal university.</p>

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<p>This will devolve into an unpleasant argument. My S is an excellent student, but he was nudges by a silly professor into Ancient Greek, which made no sense because he was struggling in Advanced Latin. Since it was a two semester course (and he had no idea he could drop in midstream) he got two horrible, though passing grades, that punched his GPA in the eye. It would have been pass/fail at any other college.</p>

<p>He did get A-'s and two coveted A’s but there was no reason for these results. He has since wracked up 7 A’s in a local program and all S’s in a very competitive masters program. He did try to get help.</p>

<p>I think this level of “rigor” and lack of reasonable ad usenet is unnecessary.</p>

<p>If you or your child did not encounter this situation it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, even for excellent students. He did not have an easy way paved for him after Williams.</p>

<p>As I said, he got an excellent education and his breadth of knowledge impresses everyone
In his current program.</p>

<p>There is a happy ending. He’s teaching his first college course in the Fall (iI saw it in the catalogue.) However, it was dicey for a while based on poor luck. The trillions of hour spur into Ancient Greek did lower his grades a but in his other courses as well.</p>

<p>Classics was a poor choice for him because of the language requirement. He had an excellent GPA his first year before he went back to it. No one said boo. I think he had an A- average in English, and no one suggested that he switch majors.</p>

<p>I don’t think the problem was all his, even if he didn’t show good judgement.</p>

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<p>So I think this thread is a showing versus telling example that supports my statement that Williams = Risky. Ephman and Momrath saw/experienced a very desirable outcome, while Mythmom, Electronblue and I saw/experienced a very different and undesirable outcome. This is the very definition of “risk”: the potential that a chosen action will lead to an undesirable outcome.</p>

<p>I could provide details of what happened in my case, but now it is not the time. Let me just say that “proactive interference from the faculty [and other school administrators]” is not what I experienced.</p>

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<p>this thread supports your conclusion. Of course you might not get the desired outcome at Williams – but as Momrath notes, these sort of things can and do happen anywhere. People end up with unusually difficult classes, or have a conflict with a professor, or some other unforeseen or unforeseeable occurrence happens. Short of taking all classes pass/fail, this could happen anywhere. If Williams truly had a problem relative to peer institutions in this regard, it would not have a very high graduation rate, it would have an appreciably lower median GPA, and it would struggle to place students in top grad schools. None of these three things are close to true. On the contrary, Swarthmore, for example, which was cited as an example of a place where you can take a semester of classes pass fail, is notorious for its difficult grading relative to its peers, and for its extreme rigor / levels of stress. </p>

<p>So, while there are inherent risks endemic to any choice in life, I still don’t see how you can claim to know, based on a few anecdotal experiences that aren’t reflective of the average Williams student’s experience, that Williams is a “riskier” choice for securing future prospects than any other choice … including attending a school that is not nearly as well regarding, on the assumption that (a) you will get a 3.5 GPA (b) you will still want to go to med school after three years and (c) you won’t regret possibly being foreclosed from attending a better med school because you turned down an elite undergrad education. There are risks inherent in each choice. But I do know that Williams’ stellar record of med school placement speaks for itself.</p>

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<p>The premed weeding at Williams is (or at least was) severe. Perhaps two thirds of Williams students who come in thinking they will become doctors don’t. (That’s even before the question of who gets accepted to med. school.)</p>

<p>You didn’t say anything about the cost differential. Med. school will set you back big bucks. If you’ve got the funds, fine. But if that’s an issue…</p>

<p>If you are a top student at UCSD, as your admission seems to indicate, you will know your professors very well. You will get better advising, better mentoring, MUCH better in-term internships, more research opportunities. I know that Williams tries very hard, but it simply can’t get even close to matching the resources available to a top student in the Medical Scholars program at UCSD. Have an eye toward the medical aspects of bioengineering? UCSD is the top school in the country.</p>