Hard Decisions! What do you think?

<p>Many, if mot most, former pre-meds end up not being pre-meds not because of gpa issues but because they grow up and find other things that interest them more. </p>

<p>That is what education is all about-- growing and developing–sometimes in very surprising ways. Going to a 6 year med school does not allow that to occur…what happens if after two years you find that you don’t want to be a doctor? At a LAC–no big deal, at a 6 year program–big deal.</p>

<p>You better be COMPLETELY 100% sure because if not-- you have turned down a top tier LAC education–and maybe either stuck going through med school and becoming a doctor when you don’t want to–or transferring–which is a crap shoot, if you want to go to a top college/university.</p>

<p>“Many, if mot most, former pre-meds end up not being pre-meds not because of gpa issues but because they grow up and find other things that interest them more.”</p>

<p>This above is an inaccurate statement. </p>

<p>The reader interested in why people drop out of pre-med just need to do a Google search. The reader is probably going to find that people drop out of pre-med because of GPA reasons and the realization that they are no longer competitive for Med school. Some former pre-meds may say they lost interest to save face, but one only need to listen to a few Orgo Chemistry horror stories, and associated by-pass strategies such as taking the course over the Summer, to realize that having competitive grades is a big part of a student decision to stick with pre-med. </p>

<p>In any event, since Etondad and I have different views about this, do not believe either of us. Do your homework. Google up and see who is telling the truth about reasons why people drop out of pre-med.</p>

<p>“Many, if mot most, former pre-meds end up not being pre-meds not because of gpa issues but because they grow up and find other things that interest them more.”</p>

<p>Utterly false. And at least half of the would-be premeds who drop out of pursuit of medicine at Williams today would have been very fine doctors, close to the tops of their class, had they attended second-tier state u’s, where they would have been showered with mentoring, research opportunities, and internships. </p>

<p>My personal firsthand experience of this is very old, as am I. But when I was at Williams, out of a class of 1,275, they had 120 or so folks who wanted to be docs. The weed out in those days back in the dark ages was biology, not organic chem (because in the two decades after Watson-Crick, that’s where the action was.) They always scheduled one of the three weekly classes for Saturday morning at 8 a.m., and took attendance. They graded heavily on a curve (I took bio, but wasn’t premed, 'cause I hadn’t heard about Williams rocks’n’stars.) By the end of the second year. The 120 premeds were whittled down to 35. Williams proclaimed that 90% of them got in med school, and indeed they did. But of 120, a full 90 of them at least not only really wanted to be docs, they could have been docs, but Williams wouldn’t support them. They couldn’t find research opportunities, or internships, or close mentoring for 90. And as Ephman correctly notes, academic advising and career counseling are not strong. And the percentages of those accepted would have shrunk. Now many of them went on to do other wonderful things (I’ve never thought that being a human plumber is so great myself.) And I have no idea how it is today (well, I do, but it is secondhand, not firsthand.) But another 60+ would likely be doctors today had they chosen their college differently.</p>

<p>Regardless, if you are top dog at UCSD Medical Scholars, you’ll have far more opportunities than you would in Williamstown - and better advising and career counseling. (And I LOVE LACs, and sent my d. to one, though she turned down Williams for Smith.)</p>

<p>And, at Williams, you will receive a wonderful education.</p>

<p>Just one comment. Any school that has 90% plus medical school acceptance is discouraging some portion of their want-to-be doctors. That’s just the way it works. I also am a huge LAC supporter, but I know and work with an awful lot of doctors who went to ‘second tier’ state school and small colleges. No reflection about their skills or abilities, just the fact that doctors come from all sorts of schools as do we all. Each of us has to play the hand we are dealt, so whether a medical scholar at UCSD, an Undergrad from Williams or an undergrad from Wichita State, the top students from each of these schools will get into med school.</p>

<p>What’s kind of fun about this thread is that the OP has left the building, but the debate rages on. The UCSD Medical Scholars Program is not a 6 year medical school program. It is 4 years undergrad, followed by 4 years of medical school. An interesting benefit is that those in the program are NOT required to take the MCAT. From the website, “It is this accommodating nature of the program that leaves students free to explore their options outside the traditional pre-med track and to participate in extracurricular activities, such as student life programs, philanthropic work, or undergraduate research.” </p>

<p>I mean Williams is a great school, but, c’mon, Man!</p>

<p>from mini is not only impossible to substantiate, but facially ridiculous, and just flat out untrue:</p>

<p>"And at least half of the would-be premeds who drop out of pursuit of medicine at Williams today would have been very fine doctors, close to the tops of their class, had they attended second-tier state u’s, where they would have been showered with mentoring, research opportunities, and internships. "</p>

<p>Williams advising is not a strong suit. But I can damn well guarantee you that the advising (formal and informal), personal attention, research opportunities and internship (particularly summer internship) opportunities available to a typical Williams student far, far, far exceed the equivalent at the vast majority, if not all, “second-tier state u’s.” Mini is obviously not terribly familiar with what has happened over the last decade at not only second-tier state u’s, but even TOP tier state u’s like, for example, the U-C system: massive increases in class sizes, difficulty in even getting into even core curriculum classes making it difficult in many fields to graduate in five years, severe cutbacks in research opportunities, advising, internships, and so on for undergrads, I can go on and on and on, but these places are just getting hammered by budget cuts left and right.</p>

<p>It’s simply ridiculous on its face to suggest that Williams, a school with a two billion dollar endowment, doesn’t measure up in these areas. Look at the number of fellowships and internships Williams itself funds, the number of students conducting cutting-edge research as undergrads, the destinations of science students at Williams, many of whom COULD choose to go to med school, but instead end up in, for example, top tier Phd programs or so on. Of course there is weeding out … but organic chemistry is hard not because Williams makes it so, but because the subject matter (like physics and advanced biology) is inherently hard. It requires a lot of sacrifices. Med school is not for the faint of heart. And if you think that many of the folks who are “weeded out” by Williams would just cruise through these classes in Second Tier University, you are egregiously mistaken. These folks would need to ace all these classes, and that is not easy to do ANYWHERE when competing against other motivated pre-med types.</p>

<p>The fact is, a substantial majority of Williams grads end up earning a degree above a bachelor’s. Williams rates behind only Princeton, Harvard and Yale in terms of the percent of its student body attending top-five med, law, and business schools. A tiny minority of grads at second-tier state u’s can make the same claim. I could spend another few pages dissecting these claim, and of course Mini is pathologically averse to all things Williams to the point of really going over the top with his critique, but this is truly the silly season now. Williams grads are inordinately successful, and the idea that because Williams is hard, you are less likely to acheive your career goals, is one that I simply don’t subscribe to. If anything, the opposite is true. </p>

<p>By the way, I don’t think that there is a bad choice between Williams or the UC-Davis program described. I think there are plusses and minuses to both. I just respond to those who act as if this is a no-brainer due to exaggerated or non-existent deficiencies in what Williams has to offer. There are just SO many profs and administators at Williams who are eager to work with and talk to students on a one-on-one basis. They aren’t always going to coddle you to the point of aggressively courting you, but for nearly ANYONE who is a self-starter and wants to pursue individual research opportunities or more generally a relationship with professors or administrators, there are more than ample opportunities to do so. You simply can’t say the same at many second-tier universities who are being killed by budget cuts, and whose scarcest resources (professors) are increasingly devoted to getting money via research projects and to working with, primarily, graduate students on the same. There isn’t even a close comparison here.</p>

<p>“It’s simply ridiculous on its face to suggest that Williams, a school with a two billion dollar endowment, doesn’t measure up in these areas.”</p>

<p>They aren’t even close to measuring up, for the 200 students who enter Williams each year thinking they might be premed. And the reality is, those students are SO good that they would be top of the heap at most second-tier universities. Because Williams students really are terrific. They’d be getting mentoring, research opportunities, in-term internships at hospitals (where is the nearest hospital to Williamstown) because they are so darn good. They’d be top of the heap - which is why they got into Williams to begin with. I don’t know why you think Williams students wouldn’t be competitive at a second-tier public university. </p>

<p>There is no doubt that Williams has wonderful opportunities for its top students in pre-med. No question at all. That’s why 90-95% of them are accepted to med school. </p>

<p>I call it as I see it. About 200 prospective pre-meds. Wonderful Williams students. 60-65 apply; 50-55 get in. Works out at about 28% or so.</p>

<p>Just a couple of comments. I think that mini was highlighting medicine specific opportunities rather than general research, internships, etc. I would argue, just by the fact that Williamstown is not in a large urban area, these type of opportunities certainly are not as bountiful as they might be in a larger city. Truthfully even a fine, but lower ranked school like Muhlenberg has an easier time offering this kind of opportunity, just because of its location in the Lehigh Valley. Population density means there are more hospitals, more labs, etc. Second of all, Ephman, even though the OP is long gone, he was talking about UCSD (San Diego), not UCD (David). Scripps Institute is an incredible resource. </p>

<p>The funny thing is that almost all of us are strong supporters of the outstanding benefits Williams offers, but if OP has a guaranteed space versus going into a situation where he will have to negotiate even some of the issues raised here, there is greater risk in his decision to attend Williams…unless, of course, he decides that medicine isn’t his thing in the end.</p>

<p>I think Williams has excellent general research opportunities, but not for 200 premeds, poor in-term premed internship opportunities for 200 premeds (probably poor for even 60 premeds per year); and (as GvaMOM points out), likely poor in-term medical research opportunities; advising and counseling are, as Ephman just points out, a sore point.</p>

<p>Out of those 200, probably 150 could be, and would have been, fine physicians. And some that do become physicians are likely among the best.</p>

<p>Do you have a source that 200 out of 550 students come in saying they are pre-med? I could see that figure for investment banking but it’s surprising for medicine.</p>

<p>I have been reading the postings on College Confidential for at least four years and FINALLY decided to comment on this thread. My DD is a sophomore at Williams College. She is not pre-med but has had to follow the pre-med track for what she desires to become in the future. Even though she has not yet declared her major and stated to a few of her professors that she is not pre-med, the assumption was made that she would be.</p>

<p>Thus far, DD has an excellent GPA. Therefore, she will not be weeded out of the pre-med tract because of her GPA but because she wants to major in another science field where biology and chemistry, including Organic Chemistry, are needed. </p>

<p>@ mini I have to wonder how many more of these ‘200’ students are like my DD. They follow the pre-med path and have good GPAs but have other desires in mind. </p>

<p>Statistics can be very interesting but the OP and others must always do the research in order to put statistical data into context. </p>

<p>@ mythmom The academic advising my DD received has been very good. But I must admit, I did the advising when she wanted to take Ancient Greek. She chose other Division I courses instead.</p>

<p>@ mini I have to wonder how many more of these ‘200’ students are like my DD. They follow the pre-med path and have good GPAs but have other desires in mind."</p>

<p>If my firsthand experience is of any value (and it may not be), likely around 20-25% of them.</p>

<p>“Do you have a source that 200 out of 550 students come in saying they are pre-med? I could see that figure for investment banking but it’s surprising for medicine.”</p>

<p>I honestly have no idea. I know it is close to that percentage when I was at Williams back in the dark ages. (120+ out of 330 or so.) Perhaps fewer students at Williams these days want to be doctors; after all, as I’ve noted, there are somewhat serious deficiencies in what they can and do offer (some of it geographic), and, given the cost of med school these days, paying for a Williams education on top of it for some might be a massive burden (though for some it might not be.)</p>

<p>I find this thread a bit odd.</p>

<p>No one is arguing that Williams is not a great school. And congratulations on those of you whose kids have (had) great GPA’s or had them themselves.</p>

<p>Still, there doesn’t seem to be much empathy or understanding for those for whom is this is not the case. And yes, there were issues at Williams that led to my son’s outcome.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, my son was very tight with his GF at the time who convinced him to be a Classics Major (I knew what the outcome would be.) The Greek was gratuitous because Latin was enough.</p>

<p>Still, I sent an uber-bright kid to Williams, and he came out with a GPA, well, yes, in the B range, but I don’t think he could have done much with it in the world.</p>

<p>And yes, that is partly (not totally) Williams’ fault.</p>

<p>Fortunately, he found a wonderful Art History Program to take him and is now doing very, very well.</p>

<p>I love Williams, too, but I don’t think we do anything any good by white washing its faults.</p>

<p>It you haven’t had these experiences, I would think you would at least give credence to those who have.</p>

<p>I am going to make a resolution not to check this thread again, because those who have succeeded brilliantly seem to have a tin ear to hear any difficulties others encountered.</p>

<p>Carry on.</p>

<p>white-washing Williams’ faults. I am debunking facially ridiculous claims from Mini, based on nothing more than a pre-existing disposition to trash Williams (over, and over, and over) rather than rely on any facts whatsoever. </p>

<p>We are comparing the opportunities presented by Williams vs. other schools. There was a claim made that Williams, generally speaking, is needlessly harsh to its students relative to other schools. I’ve seen nothing to support that claim. What happened to your son Mythmom, is a shame. It should not have happened. But if you think there aren’t parents and kids at EVERY school in the country who will have similar stories to tell, well, you are kidding yourself. The fact is that Williams’ median gpa, graduation rates, and grad school success rates speak for themselves. Will some kids fall through the cracks, or be treated unfairly by a particular prof, class, course of study? Sure. And that is a shame. But again, there is no basis for anyone here to claim that this is a bigger problem at Williams than at peer institutions. It’s just not. So while your and Mini’s kids had great experiences at Smith and Barnard, for example, I promise you some did not, and regretted choosing those school based on what they would claim is unfair treatment.</p>

<p>Those examples just aren’t sufficient to draw a conclusion, in particular, when empiracle data, to the extent it exists, shows Williams doing a tremendous job in graduating students, getting them into top grad programs, and students not being unfairly (in the aggregate) penalized by unduly harsh averages GPA’s. Again, that doesn’t mean that Williams will serve EVERY student well. But NO college or university could make that claim, because if they could, every student who enterred would graduate within four years, and every student would get into their top choice job or grad school.</p>

<p>Even more egregious are the claims that Mini is making comparing Williams to larger univrsities, with vastly lower levels of resources, and far, far less personal attention, and yes, substantially fewer research opportunities and chances for faculty interaction, even for top students, than Williams affords. Mini pulls, frankly, out of his butt a claim that anyone who was “weeded out” (and again, I maintain that FAR more students than he is claiming just decided on their own that they didn’t want to be pre-med because, let’s face it, being pre-med is not a lot of fun anywhere, and “doctor” sounds really great to a lot of uber-achieving high schoolers until they learn from experience what becoming a doctor actually enatils) unwillingly at Williams would simply cruise to the 3.8 or higher GPA needed at a second tier university to get into med school (or hekc, I’ll even go lower than 3.8 for argument’s sake). This does a TREMENDOUS disservice to the caliber of the top pre-med students (and yes, in pre-med virtually anywhere respectable you are competing against smart, hard working kids, no different from Williams kids) you will find at virtually ANY university, who believe me, are just as smart and work just as hard as Williams students. </p>

<p>Just because you go to Williams won’t mean that you would cruise through a lesser school … especially if you struggle in science classes at Williams. You might or might not. But some people just realize they, for example, aren’t cut out (whether by sheer lack or interest, or mismatch of abilities, or unwillingness to devote sufficient hours of study, or just being exposed to something they enjoy more) for organic chemistry or physics, and would more than likely encounter the exact same issues at larger universities … the difference being, at Williams, it is far easier to switch course, decide later in your college career to embark on a totally different major, and still end up where you’d like to be. </p>

<p>Will it work out in every case? Of course not. But to suggest that just because someone is smart enough to get into Williams, yet gets weeded out of pre-med at Williams, they’d cruise to the front of the class among a far larger group of pre-med students at a big university, who don’t have the same level of personal attention or undergraduate teaching focus as a Williams, is simply farcical and, of course, completely and totally unsupported.</p>

<p>One last thing: the only basis Mini has supported for ANY of his claims about weeding out relate to his own personal experience, which I believe was many decades ago, when Williams as an institution was unrecognizable from what it is today. The students at Williams today are FAR more accomplished, savvy, and prepared than students were even in my day, which is far more proximate to today than Mini’s era. So take any supposedly empiracle statistical claims that he makes based on his own personal experience with a grain of salt. The truth is, Mini has no basis whatsoever for opining (1) what percentage of entering Williams students intent to be pre-med, (2) of those that leave the pre-med track, what percentage do so because they are “weeded out” by grades vs. what percentage choose to do so for other reasons, and (3) of those that are “weeded out” by Williams, what percentage would, at some less competitive school, perform at the elite level (A or A minus) in pre-med classes that they would need to gain admission to med school. My guess is that, by the time you get to three, you are talking about a VERY small number. But unlike Mini, I’ll admit that I am merely speculating. </p>

<p>I can speak from my OWN experience that none of my friends who were pre-med failed to go to med school. Two in fact attended med school despite earning fairly average (3.3-3.5) grades at Williams. Which, by the way, I did as well, so I’m not someone who just cruised through college with a 3.9 or anything close to that.</p>

<p>There were reports in this thread by four different people stating the view that Williams <em>is</em> needlessly harsh to their students. </p>

<p>I want to add a little more. I have issues with Williams that go beyond unfair/harsh grading. Based on my experience, Williams administration does nothing to correct problems that can be demonstrated to be <em>not</em> the student’s fault. In fact, Williams is unlikely to correct many problems that are <em>clearly</em> rooted on the actions of some of their own faculty/administrators. In my view, the “in dubio pro reo” principle is not followed at Williams if it benefits the students vs. the Williams establishment. Instead, they follow the “in dubio pro faculty/administrator” principle. The sad part is that many administrators at Williams are not fully aware of current Federal and State laws that benefit students, so they keep acting in this way, and keep making decisions that violate U.S. laws due to sheer lack of knowledge. </p>

<p>This problem is magnified because Williams is such a small place were everyone knows each other. This creates disincentives for students who have a legitimate grievance from seeking remedial action. After all, students do not want to be seen as the one who rocks the purple boat.</p>

<p>My sister just got back from a visit to UCSD. What a gorgeous campus and Scripps medical & research abd bUCSD medical next to it? I don’t think you can compare Williams and UCSD. How will you get your hours in the medical field when Williams is 20 minutes from the nearest hospital. I live close to Williams and trust me you want the big Uni. not the #1 LAC.</p>

<p>Wow- automatic place in a top 15 med school with amazing research opportunities! I think this is such a great opportunity it would be one not to pass up. Additionally, it is not binding so you are not even locked in. I have been to Williams College and it is such a beautiful, nice part of the country and somewhere I personally would love to attend and such a great reputation, but I think the other offer is just a little too wonderful to pass up.</p>

<p>the Williams faculty and administration are violating (unspecified) federal and state criminal laws??? Once we reach the point of accusing multiple Williams employees of being criminals (of course, without any substantiation), I think it’s safe to say that someone has a bit more than just a little grudge – this thread has jumped the shark, or nuked the fridge, or whatever. Sorry you are so embittered. And accordingly, I’m done here.</p>

<p>I have to say my daughter’s adviser has been very supportive and kind and I don’t think she would have had that at a big state school. I don’t suggest that the three C’s she received were unfair, just that it can be a hard place to step out of one’s comfort zone. And that what might have seemed comfortable in high school can smack you in the face at Williams, making for a tough first year. The perception that one must be blowing off a course in order to fail it is part of why it can be difficult to ask for help. That doesn’t mean it’s not a great school. Chances are the dearly departed OP would do very well there and still get into medical school, but it’s not guaranteed. Personally, I think either choice is a good choice but it looks like we may never know the outcome.</p>

<p>Ephman:</p>

<p>I am not accusing people of being criminals.</p>

<p>What I am saying is that Williams, as a higher education institution, needs to comply with a lot of regulations. </p>

<p>If you look at the Students Handbook, under the topic “College Standards of Conduct”, subtopic “Public Law”, the Handbook states that students need to comply with Federal, State, and Local Laws. Which, by the way, it is the right thing to do.</p>

<p>By the same token, the College and its employees need to comply with Federal, State, and Local Laws. However, Higher Education laws and other associated laws are quite complex (just go to Amazon and search for “Higher Education Law” to see a ton of publications about it).</p>

<p>What I am saying is what I said before “many administrators at Williams are not fully aware of current Federal and State laws that benefit students”. Because of this lack of knowledge, they may do things to accommodate old institutional views, even if it violates current public law.</p>

<p>Does this statement jumps the Shark? I am very confident about what I wrote. Other people may believe differently. They may believe that a person who got a PhD in an unrelated field 30 year ago and now is on top of a faculty committee is indeed updated about current law.</p>

<p>I admit that it is difficult for anyone to be abreast of current laws. That is why a good college would have a process in which, in case of a problem, students could point out new regulations that apply to their situation. The faculty/administrators would appraise it, and act accordingly. </p>

<p>However, at Williams, the process is more like this (and I know I am doing this metaphorically): When Mark Hopkins was in one side of the log and the student was on the other side, Mark Hopkins was not concerned with petty regulations, and that provided the best possible education one can have. So if you point out something to me now that does not follow my old-style belief about what education should be and how our institution should behave, I am well justified to ignore it… In particular, if the new regulation bothers or contradicts the view of some faculty/administrators.</p>