<p>How does the saying go, a camel is a horse designed by a committee?</p>
<p>A college that gets applicants from all over the world (e.g., Harvard, the subject of this thread) has to consider not only the small number of [url=<a href="http://olympiads.win.tue.nl/imo/%5DIMO%5B/url">http://olympiads.win.tue.nl/imo/]IMO[/url</a>] medalists in the United States, but also the LARGE number of IMO medalists in the college's applicant pool. An IMO medalist who applies to Harvard, MIT, or Caltech (which is something an IMO medalist is well advised to do) can't be sure of standing out in an applicant pool that includes most of the other IMO medalists who are applying to college. That's all. Every applicant to such a college wants to have smart classmates, but the smart classmates come from applicant pools that include amazing people from all over the world. </p>
<p>As previous responses to this thread have indicated, Harvard, for institutional reasons, has to admit some students who are rather clueless in math, in order to provide students for long-established departments that don't necessarily attract math-liking kids. If Harvard ever goes for a whole year without admitting ANY applicants who have an IMO medal, that would be most surprising, but it is not surprising at all that Harvard doesn't admit every applicant with an IMO medal, because it can still fill its math department with excellent students, but it needs to fill up lots of other departments too. The Harvard admission officers know that some IMO medalists will go to other colleges with strong math departments, so sympathy for those medalists doesn't compel it to accept ALL of those applicants. All the IMO medalists from the most recent olympiad will be able to go to fine colleges, as long as they apply to enough different colleges.</p>
<p>tokenadult,
International admissions are different though. I'm saying, if they are going to accept ANY mathematicians from the domestic pool, they have to take the IMO kids first. I don't know what they're thinking.</p>
<p>It certainly does seem hard to comprehend that those two IMO kids were deferred. Like with the RSI group, though, I have to believe that a bunch of IMO and USAMO medalists were accepted. Do you know any stats about that group's acceptance rate? (From what I can tell from their website, medals are determined by score, so there would have to be a bunch of winners at each level.)</p>
<p>Also, I wonder if it's likely that most every brilliant math kid participates in that competition. For example, how about the #1 Seimens winner (accepted EA to H.) who solved that math problem (theorem, proof, whatever). Was he also involved with AMC/AIME/USAMO etc.?</p>
<p>Well, no, they don't HAVE TO take all of the United States IMO medalists even to put really strong domestic math students into Harvard's math department. There isn't any total ordering of math ability that is written in stone to establish such a standard. In other words, I agree with you that the set {American students who medal in the IMO} is a subset of {American students who are very strong in math}, but I would go further and say that the first set is a PROPER subset of the second. It is possible to choose quite a few strong math majors for Harvard from American students who never once appeared in the IMO--and indeed Harvard does this every year. It is even possible to find really, really, really strong math students who have done no AMC tests at all--I know of local examples, and I know of other examples through online discussion. </p>
<p>As to what the admissions officers were thinking, I'm not a mind-reader either, but they were certainly thinking that they had a hard upper limit on the number of people they could admit from the SCEA round. The CC participant Byerly suggests various reasons why NO college with an early admission round would want to fill up its whole class with early applicants, and especially why Harvard would not want to do so. Anyone who was deferred to the regular round still has a chance to get in--and I suppose the better chance is possessed by the applicant who keeps his cool and doesn't whine about the process. </p>
<p>Good luck to you and your buddies who are doing college applications this year. I'm sure I'll be plenty nervous as a parent when the time comes for each of my children to apply, so I feel for you, but don't give up hope of having a really great college experience at a college with a challenging, prestigious program.</p>
<p>Well the number of elements in {Strong math students in America} \ {USAMO top scorers} is very small. The AMC/AIME/USAMO are very well-made tests that really test your ability to do math. I can't say the same of Siemens, etc., because research talent is much harder to measure. Same with IQ and the SAT.</p>
<p>And yes, I think Michael Viscardi has been to MOP. Adam correct me if I am wrong.</p>
<p>"They have to take the IMO kids first"</p>
<p>I would hope that no school uses that exclusive criterion.</p>
<p>First, not every student has the opportunity to take the AMC test. As an example, only 35 schools in our state offered the AMC12 to their students. An institution would be overlooking untapped potential if it arbitrarily excluded 80% of the students without considering their merits. Fortunately for the math world, G.H. Hardy was someone who looked beyond conventional measures and took a chance on Srinivasa Ramanujan.</p>
<p>Second, the ultimate contribution of most math majors at leading universities will not be as future professors with reams of publications. Most will go on to other fields, some related, some not. With that in mind, why should a major University ONLY consider math awards? While I would think they should take a few IMOs, I would also hope that they look at the other qualities of the applicants. For example, that might lead the school to take a budding entrepreneur with leadership qualities who wants to major in math.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Most strong math students in this country take the AMC. If your school does not offer the AMC, you can take it at another school as a guest (I'm not even a good math student, but I did this my sophomore year).</p></li>
<li><p>GH Hardy did not "take a chance" on Ramanujan. Ramanujan had already demonstrated profound talent by the time Hardy found him. And besides, there were no "conventional measures" back then, or even now, in the adult world for math talent.</p></li>
<li><p>Everyone in the IMO is really good. Why take a chance on someone who you know is probably not going to be as good rather than just take someone who you know for sure is good already? You know the saying "Known devil is better than unknown angel?" Well this is like "Known angel versus unknown angel."</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
[quote]
Most strong math students in this country take the AMC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's an empirical statement (although your use of the inexact word "most" makes it hard to define quantitatively). But what is the evidence that the statement is true? The number of high schools at which the AMC tests are offered is MUCH smaller than the total number of high schools in the United States. There may be a lot of "diamonds in the rough" who have strong math ability but no AMC scores to show to demonstrate that ability. </p>
<p>I say the above, by the way, even though I am a strong supporter of the [url=<a href="http://www.unl.edu/amc/index.html%5DAMC%5B/url">http://www.unl.edu/amc/index.html]AMC[/url</a>] testing program and arrange testing in my community for homeschooled students. I know of voluntary NONparticipants in the AMC program whose parents are both math professors--I know of children like that in multiple places.</p>
<p>First of all, for people who don't have it offered, there is the USAMTS. I started that my soph year since I didn't know I could take the AMC as a guest.</p>
<p>I also don't know why one would opt out of taking it. It's 75 minutes long.</p>
<p>Tokenadult, I really am glad you arrange the AMC for students.</p>
<p>Zogoto - you are assuming that students and teachers know about AMC and USAMTS. Many do not. My son found out about them last year, almost by chance, and was the only student in our county - and any adjoining county - to do either. The school where he took the AMC was two counties away. Even though that school offered the AMC, no one there, either student or teacher, had ever heard of USAMTS.</p>
<p>My guess is that most IMO competitors come from schools/areas where clubs practice these problems. However, many schools in the country have no academic clubs. You may say students without a math club could go to AOPS. However, if a student hasn't heard of USAMTS, he probably hasn't heard of AOPS, either. </p>
<p>From your posts, you seem like a fine young man. You have been gracious and forgiving several times when others have not. I'm sure you will find a college you truly enjoy, whether that be Harvard in RD or some other university.</p>
<p>A datum: we had never heard of AMC or USAMTS. And D was in the most competitive math classes offered by her HS.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well the number of elements in {Strong math students in America} \ {USAMO top scorers} is very small.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh really now?</p>
<p>At Caltech, the math department gives a prize to the top three undergraduates who aren't seniors, based on class performance, research, problem solving, etc. Last year, that prize went to one person who was an IMO gold medalist and the top USAMO scorer in his time, one person who had not ever taken the AMC, and another one who I think also had very little contest math. This when many, many MOPpers and the like were also competing for these prizes -- but they had not outperformed the students who had never heard of the AMC when they were in high school.</p>
<p>The world of contest math actually represents a fairly small subset of those who go on to be the strongest mathematicians in America. Of the American graduate students at any of the top five math graduate schools -- students who win the ridiculously intense competition which includes international applicants -- about 50% were top USAMO scorers, and the rest either did not know about or did not get involved in contest math.</p>
<p>Take it from someone who's probably seen a little more of the math world than one typically sees from high school ;-)</p>
<p>Just for clarification, is MOP the same as MOSP (Math Olympiad Summer Program)? My knowledge of this is limited, as my son only went so far as to take the AIME. In our area, we also have a competition called Mathletes, which goes from county level to state to national. </p>
<p>Its amazing what an eye-opener it is to know true math whizes, as my son is meeting at H. He himself skipped 5 years of math during elementary and middle school, took BC Calc as an 8th grader and subsequent college classes, and was tied for #1 in Westchester/Putnam Counties in individual scoring in Mathletes. But, he's well aware of barely being in the same universe as these kids you guys are talking about. (luckily, his interest area is in the sciences!)</p>
<p><<i had="" the="" opportunity="" to="" speak="" president="" of="" an="" ivy="" league="" univerisity="" who="" once="" told="" me="" that="" parents="" don't="" get="" it="" -="" they="" think="" college="" acceptance="" is="" a="" reward="" for="" doing="" well="" in="" high="" school.="" but="" colleges="" are="" looking="" kids="" will="" really="" succeed="" people="" we="" hear="" about="" ten="" years="" after="" graduate.="" instance="" our="" school="" sent="" student="" top="" b+="" average="" numbers="" articles="" already="" published="" new="" yorker="" and="" other="" magazines.="" figured="" he="" was="" good="" bet.="" were="" right="" as="" turned="" out.---="" from="" catherine="">></i></p><i had="" the="" opportunity="" to="" speak="" president="" of="" an="" ivy="" league="" univerisity="" who="" once="" told="" me="" that="" parents="" don't="" get="" it="" -="" they="" think="" college="" acceptance="" is="" a="" reward="" for="" doing="" well="" in="" high="" school.="" but="" colleges="" are="" looking="" kids="" will="" really="" succeed="" people="" we="" hear="" about="" ten="" years="" after="" graduate.="" instance="" our="" school="" sent="" student="" top="" b+="" average="" numbers="" articles="" already="" published="" new="" yorker="" and="" other="" magazines.="" figured="" he="" was="" good="" bet.="" were="" right="" as="" turned="" out.---="" from="" catherine="">
<p><<3. Everyone in the IMO is really good. Why take a chance on someone who you know is probably not going to be as good rather than just take someone who you know for sure is good already? --from zogoto>></p>
<p>The frist example of Catherine is indeed a good bet, But why HV choose not bet on IMO ?</p>
<p>This only remind me the story that I heard and posted here a while ago, colleges are some time play adminssion game , which I still don't believe it, but like to collect more information about this .......</p>
<p>The first example of Catherine is on Humanity side, so HV can be sure that s/he will be in after acceptance, after all HV is the best in USA in liberal arts.......</p>
<p>But for those IMOers, if they somehow failed to show HV that they are also very interested in HV humanity and arts program, HV may think those kids may very welll apply to MIT and Caltech on RD and get accepted , and MIT/Caltech are good fit for them anyway if they gave an impression of only want to focus on MATH........to keep HV's rollment rate high, expecially for EA, why give this precious seat to someone who has a very high possibility of not coming ? --not saying those kids are not good.....</p>
<p>zogoto, I am feeling for you, I wish you the best luck on RD.....</p>
</i>
<p>Although my son's hs participates in the various science olympiads, it does not do the math contests. Quite apart from the college admissions reprocussions, it wonderful for kids to have access to these 'worlds' if they are so inclined. I have sent links to the various programs to the hs - guess I should check if anyone's followed up.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just for clarification, is MOP the same as MOSP (Math Olympiad Summer Program)?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, it is the same program. All the students who participate in what the American Mathematics Competition people officially call MOSP prefer to call that program MOP. </p>
<p><a href="http://moppers.kaseorg.com/mop.dict/m%5B/url%5D">http://moppers.kaseorg.com/mop.dict/m</a></p>
<p>This discussion highlights the many different "worlds" out there. Some are astounded to learn that students at other schools don't have opportunities to participate in academic contests, while other students are amazed to learn academic contests exist at all.</p>
<p>The same is true for SAT prep courses. My guess is that just about everybody on CC has heard of SAT prep courses, but I know that most students where I live have not. I've no idea how far students around here would have to drive to take such a course; it wouldn't be a short jaunt - probably 50 or 60 miles one way.</p>
<p>True story - a few years ago, my neighbor's son, one of the top students at the local high school, skipped the PSAT because he planned to take the ACT and had no idea that the PSAT was used for anything other than practicing for the SAT. </p>
<p>RSI, NASA Sharp, Siemens, Intel, etc.? I had never heard of any of those before I discovered CC about a year ago. How many CC students would faint if they learned that most students around here have never heard of any but local colleges, unless the college is a football powerhouse or is HY? (PMS is a female problem, not associated with any colleges.)</p>
<p>I currently live amidst frozen soybean and corn fields, i.e. rural midwest America. Years ago I volunteered at a poverty-stricken school in a large urban city. Some of the students at that school were very bright and had quick, flexible minds. However the gap between their opportunities and those of the students around here was even larger than that between rural students and suburban students who attend elite public or private schools. </p>
<p>There's a lot out there besides math and science contests. When a carpenter was recently repairing some rotten wood on my house, I marvelled at how much he knew and could do that I, a civil engineer, was clueless about. The people running the nearby hole-in-the-wall Chinese restaurant amaze me. Through business savvy, they have not only outlasted two chains that tried to come in the area, but have also increased their business. Look around. Recognize that many people have intelligence in a variety of areas. Appreciate that intelligence and learn from them. It makes life a lot more interesting and fun.</p>
<p>As for colleges, relax. Wherever you go, you will have opportunities to learn from a variety of students as well as from your professors. Students who make the most of these opportunities will be satisfied with their college experience and will likely excel at whatever they do after earning their undergraduate degrees.</p>
<p>Very well put.</p>
<p>"Recognize that many people have intelligence in a variety of areas. Appreciate that intelligence and learn from them. It makes life a lot more interesting and fun."</p>
<p>That diversity in intelligence is what makes great schools great, just as it makes great communities great. I think that most schools are playing more than just a numbers game with their admission strategies. The values are changing, and consequently the rules of the college prep game are changing. This is not a "massacre" or a "slaughter". It's an ongoing effort to balance the culture at their institutions because diverse environments are healthy environments. It's a scientific fact.</p>