<p>^ Comparing Tufts to Suffolk...that's classy of you.</p>
<p>comment edited out - Mod JEM
I was simply stating that first someone from Harvard (I believe) was critical of the program, then Tufts, so I was waiting for someone from Suffolk to chime in as well. That's it.</p>
<p>First off,
Lordalabastard is wrong with his slight toward community colleges. I graduated in Jan, '07 from a JUCO and I got accepted to UPenn SGS. I was nominated to the All-USA academic team. How's that for a community college guy? I was also invited to attend HES and if I could afford to move to the Cambridge area I would go there instead of UPenn, so get the facts straight about community colleges because they are a great steppint-stone to bigger and better things.</p>
<p>well said datadude. but why would you have rather gone to HES rather than Penn CGS. I thought UPenn's program was more integrated and you dont have to worry about "general studies" or "extension" on the degree?</p>
<p>datdude,</p>
<pre><code> What lord is saying is that four year colleges are better than 2 year colleges. The USA academic team is an accomplishment for 2 year students that you were (nominated) to. Upenn SGS (you mean CGS) is a continuing-Ed school like harvard ext. It's better than the extension school because they offer equivalent courses as the day school at UPENN. Harvard Extension school offers courses that aren't equivalent to the college.
</code></pre>
<p>If you think making it to a continuing ed program is a great accomplishment instead of the UPENN full-time college itself, than you're sadly mistaken. There are community college students who have applied to very good full time colleges and made it in so you aren't on par with them.</p>
<p>Jillian, just stop. So you're telling me that a person who goes to a two year community college and then transfers to U. of Podunk is better off then someone who does the same and goes to UPenn CGS or Harvard ES? Get real. </p>
<p>And the only thing that Penn's program has over HES is that the degree doesnt metion extension or general studies and it's slightly more integrated with the day program. That's it. The benefits of HES by way of special student status, RA study, joining college clubs and volunteering at Phillips Brooks far outway the Penn program. Not to mention the alumni benefits. </p>
<p>Jillian, its very odd that you chose your first couple of posts to educate us on the ills of non-traditional programs.</p>
<p>Ruben, learn to read. </p>
<p>I said 4 year colleges are better than 2 year colleges. That's one part.
Then I said that matriculating into a "very good" full time college is better than matriculating into a continuing ed program like Upenn or the extension school. A "very good" full-time college is not the same as mentioning your fictitious "U. of Podunk." </p>
<p>Read sloooowwwlyyy. </p>
<p>What's so odd about my first "couple of posts" (you mean my first above)? I merely googled for Harvard extension school and found this thread. Then I read the arguments and decided to respond (which means registration is necessary).</p>
<p>Oh really. So you googled Harvard Extension, happened to come on to this website and started putting in your two cents? How lovely. Why were you googling HES in the first place? It seems like you really have no interest in it and are in fact regarding it as a poor choice for people who can otherwise attend a better school. </p>
<p>So please, Jill, enlighten us. Tell me what university could a person coming right out of community college get into that would likewise be worth leaving the great oppourtunities you can earn at HES or Penn CGS? Point is, maybe the local flagship school would be a better choice for some one looking to get their BA and jump straight into the workforce. But then there are those that want to jump into a great PhD or masters program, which HES is well known for helping their students achieve. </p>
<p>For the rest of your screed, grow up.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"As to the usage of A.L.B, it is relatively obscure and is understood clearly only by the tiny minority of the population who know it to be associated with HES. Even at Harvard that's a minority"</p>
<p>How do you know that?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Harvard awards over 40 different degrees, including several flavors from Harvard College (not just the AB and AM, which is why even graduates of the College might mistake ALB or ALM for one of the alternative varieties). </p>
<p>Harvard follows its own obscure naming conventions, such as AB for a bachelor's degree, Commencement for the graduation ceremony, and many other peculiarities unknown to the general public. If somebody claimed to have a "Doctor of Medical Sciences" degree from Harvard University, you would assume that they earned it at the Harvard Medical School, right? Most people would assume that, Harvard alumni included, but they would be wrong.</p>
<p>Apart from the minority of Harvard and Princeton affiliates, most people haven't heard of "AB" and "AM" degrees, the standard designations in the United States being BA, BS, MA. Most people don't know that the Extension School even exists, and certainly not how its degrees are labelled. They would have no idea what an ALB or ALM is, beyond a willingness to assume that it's a bachelor's degree or master's degree. </p>
<p>At Harvard, the non-extension students learn about degrees offered at their own faculty (the College, Business School, Law School, GSAS, etc) from the student handbooks issued within each program. Unless they go out of their way to research the Extension School, there isn't any place they would naturally come across the initials ALB or ALM or learn that those are HES degrees. </p>
<p>Some of this confusion appears in the record of the UC discussion on Shinagel's proposal to relabel the HES degrees. You can gather from what was written that the degrees at HES were an obscure subject to those undergraduates, and I see no reason to believe that UC members are especially uninformed about Harvard administrative minutiae. The general population knows even less of the Harvard trivia. </p>
<p>Basically, the Extension School is obscure enough at the moment (outside Harvard and to some extent within it) that this AB versus ALB issue can fly under the radar.</p>
<p>
[quote]
this [UC resolution to maintain the labelling of Extension School degrees] seems to be no different from all of the other turf battles that go on at Harvard regarding who gets to claim what status.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There is a clear difference. Unlike professors, students have no stake in who administrates or controls various programs at Harvard, because they graduate and leave the university in a few years' time. So they have no tangible "turf" to defend. What they are defending is very obvious: the integrity of the degree currency that they purchased. HES awards about 100 bachelor's degrees per year which is about 6 percent of the number at Harvard College. We have seen that the vast majority of those are not eager to specify their affiliation to the Extension School unless forced to, and may not be required to do so even on their CV's. Thus, as many as 1 out of 20 people representing themselves as Harvard baccalaureates may be non-self-differentiating HES folk.</p>
<p>The value of the Harvard degree being mostly in the admissions selectivity, 5-6 percent is a significant number. That's not including the ALM's, ALB students who don't graduate, and others of potential relevance to this issue. The number of Extension School ALB graduates boosts by 20-50 percent the population of ambiguously selected Harvard admits with bachelor's degrees (i.e. adding them to athletes, URM, legacy and development cases). That's enough to potentially erode the brand that the UC voters and their fellow students paid for in money and schoolwork. They are fighting to prevent counterfeits, not for "turf".</p>
<p>
[quote]
The number of Extension School ALB graduates boosts by 20-50 percent the population of ambiguously selected Harvard admits with bachelor's degrees (i.e. adding them to athletes, URM, legacy and development cases)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is the funniest thing I have read on this board.</p>
<p>So basically what you are telling me is that the 100 ALB grads that graduate every year are a threat to the College's prestige? Do you not know that a significant portion of the world does not hold any degree from Harvard, be it college or extension?
And siserune, I do not understand why you do not think that the UC's reaction to the name change as not a urf battle. If they are trying to prevent counterfeiters as you say, then they're defending their turf, as in defending the integrity of their degree by keeping both degrees distinct from one another. Plus, from reading on the subject, I can tell that not even the UC is that informed on what the extension school is.
And even then, siserune, the faculty has to vote on it, and Shinegal will probably get his way sometime in the next two to three years I bet. But believe me even if "extension studies" were rubbed off of the degree, it would still be significantly different because the extension degrees are missing the house masters signature, its says bachelor of liberal arts, and it is clearly signed by the dean of continuing education. So there is no counterfeiting. If a person wants to lie and say they graduated from the college, they would have to present to them a College degree, which they do not have and most likely (depending on job and grad school) their transcript which clearly reads extension school. </p>
<p>siserune,
Harvard is not this dimwitted organization or greedy cabal like corporation that would hand out a degree to any Joe Blow and Jane Doe. They have a name and a reputation to uphold. The ALB program usually weeds a lot of people out and confers degrees only to the handful that made it all the way through. Yes, I would say that the HES degree is at the bottom rung of the Harvard ladder (besides maybe the Divinity School), but it isnt made any less significant simply because it is geared towards the non-trad. student.</p>
<p>Ruben,
You are right on a lot of fronts. I will most likely be at UPenn next fall, but that is because I cannot afford to move to the Cambridge area and live on my own to attend HES and at UPenn I can stay on campus. HES would accept approx 60 of my credits (UPenn will accept close to 50), which means I could possibly have all my courses their taught by Harvard instructors. I also believe that, after doing much research, the Harvard courses are the best in the world. I know about HES differentiating their degree from the rest of the HC students and I know at UPenn I could flow seamlessy with the rest of the student-body, but Harvard is Harvard and it would be a great opportunity, as is UPenn a great opportunity.</p>
<p>As for you, Jillian,
It's OK that you are an antagonist, I would never have made it this far if I didn't know how to deal with your type. A little truth and wit is what hurts you. If you feel I am sadly mistaken about anything or that I cannot compete with whoever, google "The Youngtown Edition," check out who was its Editor-in-Chief last semester, read some of the articles I've written since spring, '05, then tell me who's sadly mistaken and can't compete. The paper won a Columbia Scholastic Press Association gold medal in 2006, the highest and most respected honor a college publication can recieve, and it will undoubtedly win another for 2007, when I was Editor-in-Chief. Unlike the students at HES, I will never have to fight that uphill battle for respect at UPenn and I will eventually enroll in their Annenberg School for Communication, which is widely regarded as the best communications program in the country, so who seems sadly mistaken? Say whatever you like about me, but somewhere in the sentence make sure to stick "Ivy League bound" somewhere in there.</p>
<p>Did you know that Harvard's new president, Dr. Drew G. Faust, has a Mater's and PhD from UPenn and worked there for 25 years after she graduated. You probably can't understand what I'm getting at, so I'll make it clearer for you. After graduating from UPenn, I'll have a great option to attend Harvard's GSAS or another of their prominent graduate schools. By the way, where did you attend college, Hatersville community college?</p>
<p><a href="Ruben%20asks:">quote</a> So basically what you are telling me is that the 100 ALB grads that graduate every year are a threat to the College's prestige?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There are roughly a thousand, not 100, Extension School students pursuing ALB and ALM degrees at any given time. Both affiliations are easily (and often deliberately) confused with the College and other Harvard degree programs that differ critically from HES, especially in the admission standards. I cited the lower figure, 100 ALB graduates per year, to give a clear apples-to-apples comparison with the number of underqualified admits to Harvard College (athletes etc, most of whom were still admitted on a much more stringent standard than the ALB students). </p>
<p>However you wish to count the HES-affiliated population, the number and proportion of poseurs is not small, as we have seen earlier in this thread. Sakky, for instance, does not deny that the posing is rife at HES; he apparently takes it as a given and only claims that similar fudging happens elsewhere at Harvard. Your denials that the posing exists are completely unbelievable.</p>
<p>That Harvard prestige will be high whatever HES does, is beside the point.<br>
It is is clearly in the interest of the non-HES students and alumni to limit the opportunity for the posing and deliberate confusion, particularly if HES plans to expand. Hence the resounding UC vote and the cold shoulder from the faculty to Shinagel's proposals. On the other side there is Harvard's interest in marketing HES, so it will be interesting to see what happens with this matter if dean Shinagel pursues his ambitions. The current solution is for Harvard to mislead applicants with its promotional literature for HES, take money from all sides, and hope that the issue goes away.</p>
<p>
[quote]
However you wish to count the HES-affiliated population, the number and proportion of poseurs is not small, as we have seen earlier in this thread. Sakky, for instance, does not deny that the posing is rife at HES; he apparently takes it as a given and only claims that similar fudging happens elsewhere at Harvard. Your denials that the posing exists are completely unbelievable.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Uh, while I haven't carefully read every single post in this thread, I don't think Ruben ever claimed that the "posing" (as you call it) doesn't exist at all. Given that, as I have enumerated, the rest of Harvard has plenty of posing, I would, frankly, be shocked if HES didn't have any. </p>
<p>
[quote]
The current solution is for Harvard to mislead applicants with its promotional literature for HES, take money from all sides, and hope that the issue goes away
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I return to my basic point - I don't see HES doing anything that other Harvard schools aren't doing, and whether you want to call that a matter of 'misleading' is up to you. Is Harvard Business School Executive Education "misleading" people by effectively selling short-and-sweet HBS alumni status to those who couldn't get into the HBS MBA program?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky, for instance, does not deny that the posing is rife at HES; he apparently takes it as a given and only claims that similar fudging happens elsewhere at Harvard. Your denials that the posing exists are completely unbelievable.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Woah there tiger. I have never said there wasnt any posing going around HES. I mean I do believe that when HES students mention they attend Harvard, they're not lying. Most people do not understand waht the Extension School is about, so even if some do want to take advantage of that ignorance, others still do not want to go into the details of explaining the extension program. Also, Siserune, if an extension student were to explain teh whole program, I highly doubt that a person would outright neglect to see them as a member of the Harvard Community. Unless you're a total jerk, no one is going to denounce someone for continuing their education at a primo university. </p>
<p>Siserune, now that I am actually in Cambridge visiting some of my mates for the summer, I went over to the Extension School to see what it was all about. I found that the average person in the streets still saw the Extension School as a part of Harvard, and found the program to be pretty hard to complete all the way through. The average Bostonian see it as a pretty rigourous demanding program that most do not have time for. If anything I got the impression that it was a golden continuing ed program, and that is how you should simply view it siserune, as nothing more than a top notch continuing education program for the non traditional student. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Hence the resounding UC vote and the cold shoulder from the faculty to Shinagel's proposals.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think the faculty has voted on the issue yet, siserune. There was no cold shoulder. Where do you dig this stuff up? From reading the link you posted the UC knows very little about the Extension School. </p>
<p>
[quote]
On the other side there is Harvard's interest in marketing HES, so it will be interesting to see what happens with this matter if dean Shinagel pursues his ambitions.
[/quote]
I think that eventually Harvard will let the Extension School omit "extension studies" from the degree. Harvard will soon peddle the Extension School as a top notch continuing ed program with ivy standards. I mean they cannot keep battling negative press all the time, they have to chime in on whats really going on with the students and their accomplishments through HES. </p>
<p>
[quote]
The current solution is for Harvard to mislead applicants with its promotional literature for HES, take money from all sides, and hope that the issue goes away.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mislead? I think we have two different outlooks on this. First off, I DO think that HES misleads potential students. They actually mislead them into thinking that getting into the program is a cakewalk, and that finishing the degree is even easier by emphasizing "open enrollment". This is false. I personally had lunch with someone who is in the one of the degree programs and he told me that many people try and many people fail. Either way the Extension School makes money for Harvard. Why do you think the Extension School enrolls so many people, but only a few come out with a degree? </p>
<p>Siserune, I appreciate you sharing your opinions with us on this board. But this topic is getting a bit tiresome. I am actually in Cambridge typing this message to you. I have seen the Harvard campus, the ES school, and talked to several people about it. The negativity surrounding it, mainly fostered by people with an edge like you, is smoke and mirrors. Seriously, eventually, (unless it's a top tier investment bank, maybe) no one cares whether you received your degree from the ES, because in the end its a Harvard degree. This is something that you're not going to get around, no matter how many arguments you throw in here siserune. The Harvard name commands so much respect, that any degree from there will always be looked at in high regard. College kids, snobs, and naysayers can say whatever they please, the administration fully supports the efforts of the ES. I believe its time to get over it.</p>
<p>Siserune, if I may ask, what school do you attend? I mean your arguments are simply just incoherent to me in regards to the extension school. You say some things that make sense and then with other things it seems you pick and choose from material you've read off an article or so. And from your first couple of posts it seems like you too lack a lot of knowledge of the ES. I mean sakky and I are going in circles trying to explain the same things over and over again. We know that that there are people who dislike the idea of Harvard having a continuing ed program and that there are some who neglect to mention their affiliation with the ES. But that is beside the point. You are literally going in here and inflating the numbers of people who are "posing", negelcting to mention that half the schools at Harvard are money grubbing machines too, and are making it seem as if the whole of Harvard pushes the ES away.
Siserune, no one cares. Maybe some College kids in the UC do but the majority of the school especially the grad students could care less. Grad School isnt up in arms over the ALM. Certificate in Management degree is sought after by many international students in the business world. Is the Business School infuriated over people choosing that over their programs? No. The President of Columbia has one for petes sake. </p>
<p>Siserune, I would just like to know what your overall opinion is of the school. I mean you simply post what others feel about it, but in your words what it the ES to you?</p>
<p>Hey Ruben,
Good for you for being there (Cambridge) and getting a real account of the Extension School's reputation. I think the HES classes are very legitimate. The Annenberg School for Communication has a great program which takes students behind the scenes in the world of media and has a particularly theoretical approach to communications, but the HES courses, while different from those at UPenn (at least from Annenberg's classes), offer a very attractive course listing. The variety is hard to beat at HES.</p>
<p>It's been such a great thread that I had to check back time to time to read. I thank all of you for such interesting debate. It is very interesting how siserune would keep defending himself and degrade HES status as much as he can despite that there really isn't much to argue about the reputation of the HES. Either siserune is getting paid by collegeconfidential.com to keep the conversation running or ran into some nasty HES alumni. If latter is the case, I do apologize on behalf of that moron. I believe a degree alone cannot make a moron into a respectable human being, even if its a Harvard degree.</p>
<p>No one is hiding anything. Harvard University is not trying to condemn HES, nor HES trying to take over. I do see the two as a very happy marriage. You have a distance ed/continuing ed/summer school that offers awesome classes in almost half the price, in that rest of the school do not have to have their own "distance ed" program.</p>
<p>No matter, HES is growing ever more. In the recent Harvard Magazine (a magazine for Harvard Alumni, which I receive quarterly after getting an ALM degree), HES ran a full-cover ad on the backcover. Boy, am I proud to see that.</p>
<p>Since my graduation, I've been looking into other distance ed program from various colleges and universities, and I can tell you that nothing gives more prestige and yet cost effective than HES, and I hail Harvard for pioneering such program! </p>
<p>Look, why would Harvard University, and its governing board, which consists of the most brightest people in the globe do anything to hurt its brand? HES has been legit ever since its inception back in 1906 (<a href="http://extension.harvard.edu/2007-08/about/tradition.jsp%5B/url%5D">http://extension.harvard.edu/2007-08/about/tradition.jsp</a>). What's there to argue about? Its been founded by one of the notable president of the Harvard, Lawrence Lowell. HES didn't born out of nowhere. It's been "A Tradition!" of Harvard.</p>
<p>Again, I'm just glad that Harvard community gave me opportunity to learn from the best with such a reasonable price tag and I will do everything I can to excel and live upto the brand it has established for over 356 years. So should you! Cheers!</p>
<p>I've completed a few courses now at HES and after all this banter here about whether it's real or worthwhile... you know what, it's education and that's the key to being successful. It's hard enough to continue when you're working full time and struggling to keep up with responsibilities. I wish that there would be more understanding of that and also respect for those of us who are working hard. </p>
<p>You know, I'll admit I did want just the Harvard name at first but as I grew through the academics and challenges I've learned that the name is just a small portion of the education, it is far more about personal growth and academic development and how you will impact the world with the education you are given. I've kept a good GPA while working full time and working towards my degree. I never knew when I moved here that I'd be where I'm at; starting a national and global outreach program for orphans and foster kids and looking at Medical School. I've met many people who have worked and struggled just as I have. I have very deep rooted respect for these people. I think we deserve the respect we've worked for. I wish most of you would understand that there are those of us who work to the best of our abilities and want this opportunity to take us far. </p>
<p>Academically, I'm not the smartest of the bunch. Well, actually, I didn't do so well before throughout my high school due to my own laziness and issues of my home life and loss of parents and such but, now that I've been to Extension and on my own, I've learned that this is my fight and it's 'the good fight'. Until you walk in the shoes of those who struggle every year to complete a degree while trying to pay bills, take care of people, and volunteer, I don't think you get an accurate representation of the people who do attempt to complete these degrees.</p>
<pre><code>In all places there are phonies but the problem here lies with those who try to stereotype all of us as that way. I'm in it for the long haul and the long term and I'm here as a blessing and I believe I will do great things with the knowledge I've aquired. Sure, I didn't have a perfect SAT or whatever but there are different intrinsic values that make sense and are evident in the students at Extension. Just remember that not all of us are equal and we are all working towards our own goals and dreams. Remember this quote:
</code></pre>
<p>"If we are to be really great people, we must strive in good faith to play a great part in the world. We cannot avoid meeting great issues. All that we can determine for ourselves is whether we shall meet them well or ill."Theodore Roosevelt</p>