<p>I'm sure questions about Harvard Law abound on this forum, but I'm hoping you'll take just a moment to entertain one more as I think I come from a unique perspective.</p>
<p>For purposes of credential I'll begin by saying that I'm 26 years old, I have a Bachelor's Degree in Music Education from Missouri State University and am a Thesis short of a Master's in Secondary Education (Music) also from MSU. I graduated with my undergrad in 05 and am on my 4th year of professional teaching. My undergrad GPA was mediocre (3.46) but my graduate GPA is flawless (4.0). Many of my high school and college extra curriculars are music related, but they are abundant, and I do have some theater and Model UN experience, I was the Chief Justice of the Campus Judicial Board (Judicial Branch of Student Government) at Missouri State where I wrote the first ever policy and procedure manual for that organization, and I served a term in former Missouri Governor Bob Holden's "Youth Cabinet." I'm also a Specialist in the Missouri National Guard Band, and have served both in the military and the civilian sector as a professional musician. I have several accomplishments as an educator that I am proud of as well, which are obviously not law related, but I think they do show a commitment to excellence, and the ability to achive. Most of my college classes (both undergrad and grad) have been education or music related but I do have some philosophy, psychology, and a very small thread of law courses as well. I've never taken the LSAT's but on a practice test I scored a 171. I also have a 90 ASVAB composite although I understand that's practically useless outside of the military. My ACT (we don't take the SAT's here) was an embarassingly low 27, although I was young and stupid and very unmotivated at that age.</p>
<p>What attracted me to Harvard originally was the Graduate School of Education where I hope to some day apply. Harvard offers the opportunity to pursue a joint J.D./Ed.D through the Grad School of Ed and HLS. </p>
<p>I've done quite a bit of research and I'm having trouble ascertaining my chances of being considered for Harvard Law. Compared to many applicants, I'm a pretty non-traditional student, but I'm not sure if that's likely to help or hinder my application. Missouri State is certainly not widely mentioned school, but it does have a decent reputation within my program of study (which is why I went there.) So, in your opinion, how would my background as described above be viewed by admissions officials at Harvard Law? Is being non-traditional in the ways I've described a plus or a minus? </p>
<p>I'll close by saying my application is still a few years away, and there is much I could do to pad my resume (including taking more classes), so if you have any advice I would certainly appreciate it.</p>
<p>Will my graduate GPA be considered as well? I would think that many law school applicants wouldn’t have a graduate GPA to be considered as they would likely be applying to law school directly from their undergrad?</p>
<p>A lot of people apply to harvard/yale and other top tier law schools with graduate degrees already in hand. Graduate GPA’s are considered as a “soft” just like your other extra-curriculars. Your UG gpa is what matters most along with your LSAT score.</p>
<p>Thank you both. Seems unlikely then, but that’s ok. My interest in Harvard is largely in the graduate school of education anyway, Law School would have just been a nice little perk!</p>
<p>i don’t quite understand why you are considering law school – it sounds like music education is your interest – especially since you say that what brought harvard to your attention is their grad school of education. law school is stressful and a huge time and monetary commitment – not something to be undertaken as a “nice little perk” in my opinion.</p>
<p>as has been noted, it is not uncommon for people to apply to law school after other graduate school or other careers.</p>
<p>i know you ask about harvard – but if you are really interested in law school for law school apart from harvard’s grad school – i’d suggest you look at yale where a non-traditional background may be even more typical. i went to yls straight from college and, even all those years ago, my class had many students from very varied backgrounds – what you describe as your background would have fit right in – not that there were students with that specific background, but rather than it would have complemented the enormously varied nature of the student body that already existed. i can’t comment on the relative weight that would be given your undergrad gpa vs. grad gpa.</p>
<p>2 things to take from those facts – 1) over 60% of their entering class for 2008 were not straight out of college but 2) just how tough it is to get into hls – 11% admission rate and a 170 on the lsat would put someone in the 25th percentile for the entering class.</p>
<p>see some of the backgrounds for the class of 2011 – your background doesn’t look that non-traditional in comparison but again – not easy to get into – less than 10% accepted.</p>
<p>I didn’t mean for that statement to sound so trivial. I find that we teachers are deathly afraid of the law, and questions frequently abound as to how our job can/must be conducted in order to avoid litigation. I believe very strongly that having a formal law education would dramatically improve my abilities to teach, especially at the college level where I could impart to my students a thorough understanding of the law and its relation to education…something I was never given, and something I would very much have liked to receive.</p>
<p>What I intended to say, although I admit to having done if in a less than elegant fashion, is that what drives me to Harvard specifically are the innovative things happening at the Grad School of Education. Should I be able to participate in the joint degree program, I think, as I said before, my life and my teaching would be greatly benefited, but should I not be accepted to HLS, I would still have a very strong interest in Harvard. In other words, should I be accepted to the Grad School of Ed, but rejected from the LS I would still very likely attend Harvard.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info on Yale. Our pre-law advisor at MSU once told me that she had never been able to get someone into Yale Law…not sure why that is though.</p>
<p>now that you’ve explained why you are thinking about law school – first of all, i have to express my doubts as to whether a 3 year law program would be worthwhile for the goals you express.</p>
<p>but i would also refer you to this program at yale – [Yale</a> Law School | M.S.L. Program](<a href=“http://www.law.yale.edu/academics/mslprogram.asp]Yale”>http://www.law.yale.edu/academics/mslprogram.asp) – a one year program specifically for people in different professions who are interested in getting a chance to explore legal studies to further their existing profession. i don’t know if there are similar programs at other law schools.</p>
<p>I appreciate that lead. That does look really interesting. I will admit an interest in actually practicing law. In fact, for most of my undergraduate career I had intended to graduate and head to law school in order to practice, but I think this would be an excellent alternative should the joint degree program not work out. </p>
<p>I do understand that the joint degree program would be extremely difficult, although I do think I could handle it. Nevertheless, it does seem that being accepted to both programs at Harvard would be extremely unlikely, and you have been a wonderful help should I need to consider an alternative.</p>
<p>Thank you so much!</p>
<p>=Justin=</p>
<p>P.s. I was looking at the LL.M as well…perhaps it would increase the number of courses I could teach at the University level.</p>
<p>Duke has a joint JD/LLM degree in International Law. I believe it is a summer start program, so both degrees are obtained in under 4 years (I think). Duke also has a clinic in Children’s law, so it too is very involved with law and educational issues. Please look beyond Harvard for your law degree–</p>
<p>As a non-traditional student who has a military background, your application will be viewed in a different light than the typical applicant- so you may be given a bit more latitude in your lsat/gpa results. My guess is you would still need a very solid LSAT score, but if you obtain mid 160’s, I wouldn’t rule out some T-14 acceptances.
Please don’t let anyone on this board discourage you- but you do need to have your LSAT score before you can figure out what schools to apply to- </p>
<p>and as a non traditional applicant, it may be worth your while to obtain services of a reputable law school admission consultant. In most instances, I think it is unnecessary- but sometimes it could be very helpful. But again- I think you need an LSAT score before you decide what schools to apply to- Good luck</p>
<p>i wasn’t about to look at every law school and every llm; i thought these were illustrative. if you can provide info for an llm that is contrary to this and does not require a prior law degree, please provide the link. i would be interested to see if there are law schools out there that in fact call a degree an llm and define it differently than what i have been familiar with.</p>
<p>(i am responding to ThePhilosopher – obviously a program that accelerates the jd/llm together such as marny sites still assumes the llm is a masters after you obtain the basic law degree).</p>
<p>Thanks for the help. I suspect what I’ll do is work towards getting accepted to the Grad School of Ed first, then apply for the joint degree program, and if it doesn’t work it doesn’t work. Then I can consider other programs such as the one at Yale.</p>
<p>Sorry… haha I should have put a few more ^ in. I meant to say that a joint degree would be necessarily more difficult than getting each degree. If you’re going to get both anyway, might as well get them in less time. </p>
<p>Yes, a JD is USUALLY required for an LLM, unless of course you are getting it overseas, in which case only an LLB is required (which you can get as an undergraduate).</p>
but again – not easy to get into – less than 10% accepted.</p>