Harvard-NEC

College Majors Music Major
1

Does anyone have any insights as to whether the admissions office at Harvard treat those applicants for Harvard-NEC dual degree program differently? I sense that there is given that there’s a check off box in the application if the applicant is going for the dual degree program.

That is, do they assess the applicant from the point of survivability? After all, dual degree program is not for everyone as it requires multitasking and time management skills. Is the applicant more likely to be admitted to the dual degree program with evidences of such skills, and likewise, less likely to be admitted when lacking such evidences?

As in BM degree program, such as at Northwestern or Rice, do they ease a bit on academic and test qualifications at Harvard for the dual degree applicant?

From the NEC’s perspective, I’m pretty sure they’d much prefer their students to just concentrate on musical studies rather than having their students split their resources on two disparate endeavors. This leads me to believe that they, too, have different criteria for admitting students with the dual degree aspiration.

Any thoughts?

2

The way I understand it you apply to both institutions separately. The NEC part is the same as it would be for any student applying to the conservatory. In other words it is all about the audition.

As for Harvard’s admissions, Harvard will tell you they try hard to be holistic in their reviewing of candidates for the undergraduate degree. So in that sense your child’s musical accomplishments will definitely be something they would take into account when considering your child for admission to the University. Whether they would make allowances for grades or tests might depend on how impressive a musician the student is and also what other skills and strengths the student brings to the program (including…it being Harvard $$$$).

Based on the students I have seen who have done the Harvard-NEC dual degree it does not end up being nearly as much a challenge as the Tufts-NEC dual degree. Why? Well ironically I think classes at Harvard are easier than the classes at Tufts. The commute from Harvard Square to NEC is also easier. With the Harvard-NEC degree you end up with a Masters of Music in addition to the AB from Harvard. With Tufts you end up with a BA from Tufts and a BM from NEC.

3

If you don’t check the box, then you can get in to either Harvard or NEC but they won’t have evaluated you for the double degree. A student can apply the next year, but not checking the box makes it hard to get in for freshman year if you later decide you want to be in the double degree program as a freshman.

I think students are mainly considered for the double degree at Harvard, based on musical talent and accomplishment, and, obviously, ditto on the NEC side.

Harvard and NEC evaluate candidates as if they only applied to that school, I believe. Consideration for the double degree is separate, and of course depends on admission to each school first.

In general, high level music at Harvard is a “hook.” It isn’t that candidates who do music are evaluated differently the way a school with a conservatory might do (with conservatory faculty at, say, Oberlin, advocating with college admissions and financial aid). But Harvard wants a mix of student interests and abilities, so music helps. It is all about the class, and the ability to contribute on campus, in that sense. A student might have a better chance to get in with grades and scores a little lower, with high level music ability and achievement.

NEC welcomes students to the double degree program. I cannot speak for individual teachers at NEC and their attitudes toward the double degree, but I have never heard of any kind of negative reaction or experience due to NEC thinking Harvard students are less committed to music. I am sure the presence of these students broadens the experience for everyone.

The double degree program benefits both schools. However, students are screened for it and “only the cream of the crop” do it. If a student is not admitted to the double degree program, he or she still may have a great shot at getting in to both Harvard and NEC and can try again the next year.

One thing to think about is whether NEC is in fact where the student wants to get a master’s. That extra year can mean quicker entry to a PhD or DMA but some students might, after 4 years, desire a different location for a master’s. Also the double degree includes a fee of what used to be $6k even for kids on Harvard financial aid, I believe, so it is expensive, and students can always take private lessons instead.

It is also worthwhile to point out that Harvard started focusing more on applied arts in recent years, and now gives credit for lessons and performance in certain ensembles. There is also an undergrad composers’ collective that holds concerts with both student and professional musicians.

I cannot entirely vouch for anything I have written :slight_smile: I would want anyone reading this to check on the websites and to ask admissions and/or the relevant department these questions. A tour of NEC can be very informative and the music department is available at Harvard too.

4

What we were told a few years ago (by admissions people at the two schools) was that applicants to the Harvard-NEC dual program are evaluated for admission to each school separately and are treated the same as any other applicant to each school separately. Being a stellar high school musician is a plus for admissions at Harvard regardless of whether you’re applying to the dual degree program.

We were also told that, after making its admissions decisions, Harvard notifies NEC as to which students were admitted to Harvard who checked the dual degree box. NEC then cross-checks that list against the students admitted to NEC and decides, among those students who are on the Harvard admit list and who were also admitted to NEC, which they will accept into the dual degree program (i.e., NEC makes that decision, not Harvard). And we were told that you need to be NEC’s top choice (or close to it) in your instrument to be accepted into the dual degree program. This makes some amount of sense, given that students in the dual degree program use up a space in an NEC studio while they are at Harvard even though they are primarily Harvard students and not NEC students for the first three years. So the bar is high.

Here’s a link to a post from an NEC admissions dean from last summer, which indicates that 20-25 students are admitted to both Harvard and NEC each year, and only 5-6 of those are chosen for the dual degree program:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/18693361/#Comment_18693361

5

Thanks everyone for your responses. Very helpful! Still undecided, but at least I’m most informed about the dual program. My son still has a few months to think about it before making the final decision.

6

@jazzpianodad’s assessment of the NEC/Harvard program is accurate. For the first three years, the student really is at Harvard full time and is taking lessons at NEC, in the 4th year they are splitting more time. NEC-Tufts is a true dual degree, in that the student is doing a full BM along with a full ba, so at NEC they are not only taking lessons, but doing chamber, music theory ear training, orchestra and the rest of what you do for a BM, plus you would be taking the core courses and major courses at Tufts, whereas with the Harvard program you would primarily be knocking out your Harvard requirements (obviously, in both programs, practice time would be an issue). From experience with both the Harvard program and the Juilliard/Columbia program, what students often do is try and totally finish their requirements at the academic school in 3 years, so the 4th year really becomes the first year of the MM (ie they spend all the time at the music school).

And yes, it is very, very difficult to get into the joint program with NEC and Harvard, my son knew more than a few talented students at Juilliard pre college who tried to get in and failed, even thought they were top notch musical students (many of them ended up applying to MM programs and getting in after Harvard), he felt they would have gotten in had they applied to NEC alone, but didn’t reach the mark of the joint program.To be honest, I am not sure a joint program is that much of an advantage, Harvard has a strong musical presence, they do try and get kids who are musically advanced to go there, I believe they will pay for lessons as part of tuition (more certain about other ivies on that), they have strong ensemble programs and such, so a kid could go there then get into an MM program, and given that for at least 3 years they likely will be doing academic stuff mostly, don’t see much difference (that is me).

7

Musicprnt, I think your description misses some details and is a little misleading about Harvard student’s involvement at NEC for the first three years (see below), and this is indeed termed a “double degree.” It is worth noting that Tufts/NEC students cannot major in music at Tufts, but perhaps obviously, Harvard/NEC students can major in music or anything else. One other thing to add is that Harvard now gives credit for lessons and performance in some extracurricular music organizations.

http://necmusic.edu/nec-harvard-double-degree
The NEC/Harvard program is a joint five-year program of studies leading to a Bachelor of Arts (A.B.) at Harvard College and a Master of Music (M.M.) at New England Conservatory. The program benefits musically and intellectually talented students who wish to pursue both a professional music education at NEC and a rigorous liberal arts education at Harvard.

During the first three years of the program, students will pursue the A.B. curriculum in the concentration of their choice at Harvard and take studio instruction each semester at NEC. Ensemble participation at either institution is encouraged for these three years of study. Students must perform a promotional at NEC at the end of each year to determine continued progress in their musical study. The promotional at the end of the third year also serves as an audition confirming the student’s readiness to begin the Master of Music at NEC. In the fourth year, students will complete all requirements for the A.B. degree at Harvard while beginning to fulfill NEC’s M.M. requirements. Students will receive the Master of Music from NEC after successful completion of the fifth year of study.

For more specifics http://necmusic.edu/nec-harvard-double-degree-study
Note these details on the first three years,:
Regular Freshman curriculum in Harvard College
Introductory classes in musicology and music theory at Harvard or NEC if possible
Studio instruction (one hour per week) at NEC
Ensemble participation by advisement, appropriate to the area of music specialization, at either institution (encouraged but not required
Coursework at Harvard to be later transferred to NEC by advisement
Spring semester promotional at NEC required of all majors

8

@compmom:
I don’t see anything that much different in what i said about the joint program, the first three years they primarily are focusing on their academic work at Harvard (and yes, a student could be taking music theory at Harvard if they major in music there). Note that musicology and theory are introductory courses, and they are optional, which is different than getting a BM degree where you have to take theory and ear training. Note that ensemble participation is encouraged but not required, which is very different than a BM program where it is required. All I was pointing out that the way many kids do the joint program is what I wrote, for the first three years they concentrate on the academic and have their lessons at NEC, then the 4th year start what is effectively the MM track. I have seen this at Juilliard with the exchange/joint program, and at NEC as well. BTW, I am not saying that the Harvard/NEC program is ‘easier’, it is different (and from what I understand of the Tufts/NEC degree, it eithe is a 5 year program or kids take 5 years to finish it) My son goes to NEC and knows people in the joint program with Harvard, and what I described is what they generally do. Most do end up doing ensembles at either place, but they generally aren’t doing the theory track and ear training that a BM student or an MM student does until later.

9

Musicprnt, to clarify, only the first sentence pertains to your comments.

I was just making sure people knew that things weren’t quite so cut and dried as 3 years at Harvard and two at NEC. Students can take theory at Harvard, yes, and students can do ensembles at NEC in the first years, as well. Note the “introductory courses” can be at Harvard or NEC: that simply refers to the fact that it is the first 3 years at either place. Harvard has a very rigorous music curriculum w/theory and ear training, but many of these students are not majoring in music. They do have to pass an exam for the MM, but of course are not getting a BM.

10

@compmom:
I hear you, I was just saying the way most students do it, but you are right, students in the joint program have started taking theory classes at NEC for example, or doing ensembles and such, it isn’t that rigid (I believe Juilliard is a bit more rigid with the joint programs).