<p>I must jump in here. I turned down Harvard to attend Princeton undergrad and then went to Harvard for law school, along with many of my classmates. The numbers being quoted for Harvard Law School acceptances don't mean much. Virtually every Harvard undergrad who applies to law school applies to HLS and they are overwhelmed with such applications. When I graduated from Harvard Law School a significantly higher percentage of my classmates who were Princeton undergrads finished HLS with Honors than was true for the Harvard undergrads and the Princetonians were better represented on the law review and various journals. In short, quality rather than quantity was the story. I had a great many friends at HLS who had gone to Harvard as undergrads and many of them weren't particularly enthusiastic about their experiences. You'll see this reflected in the percentage of Harvard College graduates who contribute to their alma mater. It's significantly lower than the numbers for Princeton. In fact, I believe it's under 50%.</p>
<p>PtonGrad2000: If I may ask, what were your reasons for choosing Princeton over Harvard?</p>
<p>Did you ever, at any point, regret not choosing Harvard over Princeton? If so, why?</p>
<p>What do you feel about the notion of choosing Harvard over Princeton because of the "better" brand name?</p>
<p>Harvard doesn't have a better brand name for undergrads. Harvard University, not College, does research</p>
<p>Princeton is known the same</p>
<p>.... and it has ever been thus:</p>
<p>Of course one could speculate all day about why this is so. </p>
<p>Is it "the name"? And if so, what does that name signify?</p>
<p>The "reputation"? And how was that reputation earned?</p>
<p>Do smart kids simply want to go where they calculate their peers will be found in the greatest number, as signified by SAT scores, NMS winners, etc?</p>
<p>Is it as simple as the perceived attractions of Cambridge/Boston as a college town over Princeton, NJ or New Haven?</p>
<p>Hard to say ... probably a combination of these factors.</p>
<p>It's New jersey students... no doubt... they all want change probably.</p>
<p>That's a really dumb poll though</p>
<p>Anyway, it doesn't matter if you are just going to sit around and say i got int _______ you will do NOTHING good for the world</p>
<p>there's no question that harvard enjoys a more powerful "brand name" than does princeton. this is supported both by gallup research and plain-old common sense. the real questions are whether this disparity exists for good reason, and how much (if any) it matters for prospective students choosing between the two. on the latter question, i'd argue it matters very little.</p>
<p>The common admit thing can be VERY DECEPTIVE. </p>
<p>Think about it. 50% of Princeton's class is filled ED. These students, the ones most interested in Princeton, are locked in place at Princeton as it is, and never have to decide between Princeton and Harvard (in which case they'd probably pick the former). The students that are deciding between Princeton v. School X - the ones the common data survey asks- don't include all the students that picked Princeton as their top choice to begin with.</p>
<p>In other words, the common-admit survey counts only the students LEAST interested in coming to Princeton. The ones that picked Princeton over Harvard to begin with were never even part of it!</p>
<p>I too would agree that Harvard does have a brand-name edge. But is it THAT significant? Not quite.</p>
<p>This has come up so many times in so many threads over the years.
Search the archives of the old forum as well.</p>
<p>It really has to do with fit and what your priorities are.
If prestige is number one then Harvard has no peers.
Most pushcart vendors in Madagaskar (did I spell that correctly)
have heard of it. The Roman Catholic Church is the only not for profit org that has more money.</p>
<p>Byerly has gone there:)</p>
<p>From a personal perspective only, with my son a freshman at Princeton now I will tell you this....
Princeton like Harvard is hard work (you will be up all night doing papers).
The kids at Princeton love the school. Go to hosting and see "This Side of Princeton". The school spirit is intoxicating in Richardson Auditorium and everywhere else on campus. The opportunities for extra curricular activity on campus are without peer. NYC is 65 minutes away with the train station on campus. Princeton's endowment is the largest per undergraduate student in the world.....no contest. For the most part the classes are taught by professors who are easily approached (they answer their emails).</p>
<p>Last but not least you get to dress up all year in Halloween colors.
You get to like Orange and Black.</p>
<p>Preguntas, thanks for asking. I didn't mean to bash Harvard and, of course, I am proud to have the HLS association as well. The truth is, a majority of applicants accepted to both schools will choose Harvard. It is also true, however, that a much higher percentage of those who choose Princeton are happy about that choice. This became particularly obvious in a confidential survey that occurred not long ago, the results of which were leaked to the press. You'll find reference to it earlier in this thread. Harvard undergraduates are not nearly as happy with their experiences as those at many other schools, particularly Princeton. When I was making a final decision and visited both schools, staying with students, I certainly found that to be true. I also found that the stereotypes about Princeton were very outdated. The usual lines of attack from Harvard boosters consist of claims that the town of Princeton is boring, that Princeton is an elitist WASPish place and that the eating clubs are intolerable to any civilized liberal person. I found all of these claims to be unfounded and about 50 years out of date. </p>
<p>The town of Princeton was recently recognized in a national survey as one of the best college towns in the U.S. (<a href="http://www.epodunk.com/top10/colleges/princeton.html)%5B/url%5D">http://www.epodunk.com/top10/colleges/princeton.html)</a>. It is also very convenient to both New York City and Philadelphia, each of which is an easy hour-long train ride from the campus. While Boston is a terrific city, it doesnt have the resources of either NYC or Philly and is many hours away from any other large city. Princeton is full of restaurants, coffee shops and small stores. Selection is limited because of its size but there are still many options in town and there are several large malls just a short bus ride away.</p>
<p>The claim that Princeton is elitist always amuses me and Im never quite certain what it means. Youll find as many polo shirts and popped collars at Princetons competitors (including Harvard) as you will at Princeton. Listen to these student comments. (<a href="http://www.theu.com/watch/index.php?region=Ivy%20League&schoolid=19188%5B/url%5D">http://www.theu.com/watch/index.php?region=Ivy%20League&schoolid=19188</a>)
(<a href="http://www.theu.com/watch/index.php?region=Ivy%20League&schoolid=19504%5B/url%5D">http://www.theu.com/watch/index.php?region=Ivy%20League&schoolid=19504</a>) In fact, in recent years, Princeton has had a larger percentage of students from public schools than is true for Yale. The WASPish claim is ridiculous as well and youll find that Princeton has recently been cited as a terrific place for Hispanics (albeit #2 to Harvards #1 in national rankings) (<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32259%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32259</a>)
and for African-American students. (<a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/02/08/news/14379.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/02/08/news/14379.shtml</a>)
The percentage of minority students is about the same as that found at Princetons competitors. About 30% of last years class consisted of minority students. Another 10% of the class was international with a large percentage of those being non-Caucasian so that the total true minority representation is somewhere in the 35% to 40% range. There is always room for improvement and Princeton seems to me to be quick and honest in acknowledging weaknesses and trying to correct them.</p>
<p>The criticism of the eating clubs is also woefully outdated. Fifty years ago, these were far more exclusionary. Today, more than half of the clubs are simple sign-in clubs that any junior can join through a random selection process based on the number of available spaces. The other clubs have a student-run selection process but it is no more elitist than similar processes at Yales Secret Societies or at Harvards Final Clubs. The difference between the eating clubs and these social organizations at the other schools is that almost all parties at all of the eating clubs are open to students across campus whether or not they belong to that club. The parties vary in quality but typically theyre all a good deal of fun. The cost of belonging to an eating club is only very slightly more than a meal plan at the University for which it substitutes.</p>
<p>Then there is the weather, which is better at Princeton. There is far more snow and bitterly cold weather in Boston, while the mid-Atlantic tends to be more temperate but still has beautiful fall and spring weather.</p>
<p>I also found less self-conscious competitiveness when I visited Princeton. There was a smugness at Harvard College that I found unattractive and a sense of belligerent defensiveness that I found equally unattractive at Yale. You will find unpleasant people at Princeton or anywhere else you go, but I personally found the atmosphere more congenial at Princeton.</p>
<p>Finally, there was the sheer beauty of the place. Princeton is a stunningly beautiful school with magnificent architecture and landscaping. This made a difference for me. I grew up in the country and I enjoy long walks in the evenings along grounds spotted with moonlight or next to lakes covered with mist. (<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/giving/ag/..._of_Princeton1/%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/giving/ag/..._of_Princeton1/</a>)</p>
<p>Can you get a tremendous education at either? Absolutely. Are there differences in style and atmosphere? Definitey. Did I prefer one to the other (acknowledging that its a very personal choice)? Ill let you be the judge. Go forth, visit each place and choose. You really cant go wrong with either.</p>
<p>Sorry about the dead link. Here's the live one!</p>
<p>^^ What a brilliant write-up from a Harvard Law School Graduate. Well-balanced, well done</p>
<p>indeed, well thought out. I just wanted to point out one flaw among princetonians on this board. It is disingenuous to compare eating clubs to secret societies at yale. The former is an integral part of the princeton experience, provides for basic necessities (food) and is the core of social interaction on campus. The latter is the equivalent of an extracurricular activity in which only 10% of seniors participate. They do throw exclusive parties and they do cater meals to their members, but to equate the two is completely wrong. They are a well-publicized and media focused blimp on the map of a yalie's life.</p>
<p>The misnomer of Prineton's preppiness, in my opinion, comes from the eating clubs and the persistence of bicker at some of them. I don't think preppiness necessarily has to do with financial aid nor diversity. I saw the preppification (!) of many diverse elements while at yale both those on financial aid, and those from wealthy backgrounds.</p>
<p>Thank you for the compliments and I acknowledge the fairness of your comment about the Secret Societies. It seems to me, however, that the eating clubs are the exact opposite of elite. If they are meant to be exclusive and vehicles for social stratification, they are doing a very poor job indeed. In fact, nearly 3/4's of all Princeton juniors and seniors (plus a large percentage of the sophomores during their spring semester) belong to the clubs. Furthermore, students of all classes tend to show up at the open parties (though drinking age limits are observed). Its difficult to see how a phenomenon so widespread and open to anyone who wishes to participate can be said to be elite. On the contrary, I would say that it is clear that they are rather 'common'. They're also a lot of fun for most students. The facilities are beautiful and they offer a full range of activities including community service. For those who do not wish to participate as full members, there are also social memberships which are much less expensive and even those juniors and seniors who have no formal connection with the clubs whatsoever often show up at the parties. </p>
<p>So, yes, you are correct in saying that the eating clubs are a far more important part of Princetons social scene than the Secret Societies are of Yales. The flip side is that they are also far more open and far less elitist than those societies and Harvards Final Clubs (thus explaining why the national media take so little interest in them compared to organizations such as Skull and Bones and Porcellian). </p>
<p>I have ambivalent feelings about the clubs and was not a member of any of them, but I attended plenty of parties and generally enjoyed them. Calling them elitist, however, is a little like calling membership in the YMCA elitist. It just doesnt make sense. There are far too many members and its far too easy to participate for such a label to be justified.</p>
<p>I think you underestimate the "media interest" in the "eating clubs" (did you watch the Alito hearings?) and the impact - which exists, though it is difficult to measure - on application and matriculation numbers at Princeton because of the image of snobbishness and privilege to which these exclusive organizations contribute. (An earlier poster insists that some of the less fashionable bicker clubs accept "almost half" the people who want to join. That means the other half are banished to less prestigeous venues.)</p>
<p>Look, the administration has a clear policy and campaign under way to marginalize the eating clubs insofar as possible by changing living arrangements at Princeton to more nearly reflect the "college" model at Yale and the "house" model at Harvard.</p>
<p>Why are they doing this? Because surveys and studies consistently show that a modest but significant fraction of potential applicants - particularly females - find the concept of the "eating clubs" off-putting.</p>
<p>The situation is sensitive because influential alumni are as emotionally wedded to the "eating clubs" at Princeton as they have been to fraternities at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Still, these anachonistic institutions must and will go, unless Princeton (mistakenly, IMHO) drags the process out - subsidizing them by paying "eating club" fees for economically-disadvantaged applicants. This is a subsidy the "eating clubs" are frantically lobbying for. If people have acceptable and <em>cheaper</em> eating alternatives elsewhere which are not seen low-class and socially unacceptable, the "eating clubs" days as arbiter of the social scene at Princeton will be numbered. This is a consumation devoutly to be wished.</p>
<p>I disagree -- the eating clubs should stay. It's the misguided perception of them that needs to go.</p>
<p>You (typically among those devoted to the institution) see antipathy to the "eating clubs" as misguided.</p>
<p>The trouble is that year after year Princeton loses a certain fraction of potential applicants - particularly to HYP - who wil not buy into this thinking no matter what.</p>
<p>As long as Princeton is willing to pass on these people (not the "Princeton type" as Hargadon would have put it), all well and good.</p>
<p>But if the school wants to attract those "green-haired people" the president thinks are necessary to create the kind of yeasty "diversity" she lusts after... well then the "eating clubs" are a continuing impediment to progress.</p>
<p>No doubt the the Dean and President are in the process of offering alternatives to the eating clubs with the four year res college scheme.
What seems to be happening as I can tell the last few years is the green hairs are finding the clubs more appealing. This is both a result in growth of the sign in clubs as well as the acceptance of the clubs by the blue collared sons and daughters. The hooded sweatshirt wearing and green haired kids learn that donning a tux once in a while won't cause themselves vaporization but rather helps them better prepare for their entrance in the real world after graduation.
Having said that I would agree with Byerly that elitism still exists in the clubs but their are alternatives now and soon coming that give the current students plenty of options. </p>
<p>One thing rarely mentioned are the vast array of religious groups on campus. Many of these kids are either independents or members of bicker or sign in clubs. On any given night these groups can be seen dining in groups in the residential dining halls or the clubs.
There are just so many options at Princeton that I would have to agree that the club problem while very real is also very over blown.</p>
<p>To be honest, I don't see Princeton's Eating Clubs as a big deal. It's just another, more unique form of dining. Yes, some are exclusive, but so are fraternities.</p>
<p>The question I have regarding Harvard and Princeton is which school would be better if I am interested in politics and law school? Princeton has Woody Woo, and Harvard has the JFK Institute. <em>Sigh</em>, so many things to consider...</p>
<p>I know we've established that getting into the top graduate schools is easier from Harvard... but hypothetically, if I end up in the top half of my Princeton class, would I be able to attend a top law school as easily if I were in the top half of my class at Harvard? I know it's pretty much impossible to answer this hypothetical question, but these are the things I am mulling over...</p>
<p>Also, has anyone ever heard of someone transferring from Princeton to Harvard? I feel as though, if worse comes to worse, I can always transfer out of Princeton, but I'll never be able to transfer into Princeton since they don't accept transfers.</p>
<p>Finally, I want to thank everyone for your help! You guys have some very good observations and factoids to share.</p>
<p>"but hypothetically, if I end up in the top half of my Princeton class, would I be able to attend a top law school as easily if I were in the top half of my class at Harvard?"</p>
<p>yes.</p>
<p>Depending on which way you lean Woody Woo's James Madison program features courses by Professor Robert George currently heading an ethics committee for the current administration on stem cell research. Of course Alito, Bernanke, Rummy and now Bolton have all graduated from Princeton. If you lean more to the left there's a smorgasbord of professors ready and able.</p>