Harvard or Yale? Opinions, please.

<p>"at this rarefied level, does it really matter all that much?"</p>

<p>I think the more rarefied the level, the more it matters (when it comes to math, not necessarily other subjects). It you're just planning to take math up through linear algebra or thereabouts, you'll be able to get a good experience at any good school. If you're interested in advanced courses and and sophisticated research in math, then having a critical mass of the most able math undergrads you can find makes a difference.</p>

<p>I'm really sorry to see it die too. This site has provided us with so much valuable information as we've gone through the application process. Due to financial constraints my son has been unable to visit any of the schools where he's been accepted, so those admitted student days will be his first time to set foot on campus. Threads like this are incredibly helpful. I've learned some things that never would have occurred to us.</p>

<p>Sometimes threads like this are helpful in suggesting what questions to ask. I hope all the info doesn't disappear to PMs where others can't benefit.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Are they H students studying with H faculty?

[/quote]
Yes, wjb. One of them has graduated now and is in grad school for musicology. While he was at H he studied with Robert Levin, an H professor of international reknown. He has two piano friends who are currently there and studying with H profs and another who is a vocalist and a conductor.</p>

<p>When my son was studying piano as he grew up, he developed a deep involvement with the people coaching his study. It's something that evolved over years of his life. Non-music people used to say to me- what's the big deal, you can get a piano teacher anywhere. Well it's not that simple. For a musician, music involves a great teacher and a music community. Leaving that behind and having to re-establish it at a new place is challenging. </p>

<p>I'm sure that he would find a fine music experience at either school but I can totally understand your wanting to delve more deeply into the differences. </p>

<p>Not being an expert on anything related to college admissions I don't have much to offer on these threads but I can offer small tokens of our own experience.</p>

<p>And btw I didn't mean 'brutally hard' to mean anything unpleasant. More like deciding to choose between vanilla or chocolate ice cream cones.</p>

<p>I am sorry if I offended, that was never my intention...my other thread was a general one about the whole decision process...that stepping back for a week, and letting go can do wonders, whether it is for H vy, or E v F, or E v W..it was in no way a comment on an ivy v an ivy, but having seen dozens upon dozens of thread asking to help people decide, I felt it would be useful to suggest what worked for us- stepping back for one week, not talking about it, and often, the decision becomes clearer, the focus become clearer, the priorities become clearer</p>

<p>I would give the same advice to anyone- my friend's D is deciding between several schools- and her family has decided to take a week off from talking about it- she told me that it was welcome break</p>

<p>It was a general thread that was, yes triggered, by this one, but was also triggered by someone deciding between NYU and Chicago, another by someone trying to decide close to home or far away, another by someone deciding whether to take a gap year, another someone deciding between several UC, and my D own dilema last year.</p>

<p>It was never meant to offend or judge, but to suggest that it can be very benefial to slow down some and let the process sit</p>

<p>When my younger D and I looked at schools last week, the most meaningful conversations we had about school was days after we saw a school, after she let it ruminiate in her brain</p>

<p>Again, I never meant my comments as a judgement or to be harsh, it was a well intentioned suggestion directed toward all people trying to decide.</p>

<p>jym, andi -- thanks for the kind words. OK, let's let the thread keep going (not that I can really control that ;).) </p>

<p>catbird,mathmom, 2blue make a good point, which is really the "point" of CC: On any thread, many readers aside from the OP can get answers to their questions, too.</p>

<p>Hanna -- You raise an interesting point. Here's the question I meant to raise, but probably didn't express clearly: Although Harvard is known to have stronger math than Yale, is Yale still going to attract that "critical mass" of able math students. I'm hoping that, Yale being Yale, the answer is "yes."</p>

<p>wjb,
I agree with you-- your s will be in the company of bright, motivated, strong math students at either Harvard or Yale. He will be fine at either school. </p>

<p>Your questions are all reasonable and appropriate. You are data-gathering in order to help with a tough decision. Hopefully something someone says here will perhaps throw in a nugget of information you and your s. hadn't considered, in order to help tip the scales one way or another. It might be something as funny as the food quality (though anyone remember the big staff "strike" at Yale a few yrs ago-- the cooks, the secretaries, all of the ancillary personnel went on strike for several weeks!), the cost of airfare between New Haven, Boston and Chicago, or the "feel" of the residential college vs House system. (My brother was on the "old" campus with the other freshmen his first year, but got to eat in his college dining hall and get to know the upper classmen-- an ideal situation if you ask me). Yale is known for being a little more "gay friendly", which, IMO, is a nice thing in general. Does that push a political or sociocultural button one way or the other? How about the safety of the surrounding community? Is that an issue (Harvard probably wins on that one), though cost of living, parking , etc is probably a tad cheaper in New Haven.</p>

<p>As for "waiting a week"-- it would be nice if there was plenty of time to deliberate. However, its already almost mid-April. Unfortunately the luxury of time isn't there. Keep up the research and the data-gathering. As you see from the other posts, it is helping more than just your son.</p>

<p>nevermind...</p>

<p>For piano, Harvard is the better bet. Yale has lots of talented musicians, but lessons are generally by grad students, at least for the first couple of years (there is a joint BA/MM program, which a few students do there; those students are more likely to have the professors as their teachers); there is chamber music, but most is student initiated -- there was recently an article in the Yale student paper (by Sam Bagg, who started a chamber group).
Some Harvard students study with NEC professors -- two top ones are Patricia Zander and Russell Sherman; Robert Levin also, as mentioned, teaches some students -- he's a Mozart specialist and directs the Sarasota summer festival. There have been several articles in the Harvard Crimson about pianists (including one who transferred from Juilliard, studied with Robert Levin, debated whether to switch to investment banking, and now is a graduate student at Yale School of Music, teaching undergraduates, among other things...) Do some searches on the Crimson and Yale newspaper sites.
In the archives here, you might also look for posts by "Amypiano" who chose Harvard over Yale and joined the Harvard Piano Club.</p>

<p>Sounds like another time to agree to disagree. It is, in many highschools, crunch time, and getting away to visit two more schools can be a challenge, not to mention what the airfares will cost with less than a 21 day window. If the OP wanted to "let go" she wouldn't have come here to ask questions. So, for some, sitting back works for them. Fine. For others it just adds stress. The OP seems to be problem-solving effectively, IMO.</p>

<p>** the post above this is a perfect example of the "data" that can be gathered from CC wisdom/experience. Mamenyu's information may be invaluable to the OP.</p>

<p>***This post was in part a response to CGM's post #28 that has been removed.</p>

<p>"is Yale still going to attract that "critical mass" of able math students"</p>

<p>Depends on just how amazing you are. The Putnam crowd at Harvard is arguably at a different level than the ordinary brilliant math majors at H & Y.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I had a relative who was a faulty member in the Biology dept at Yale

[/quote]
Oops-- great typo of mine!! He might have been faulty, but I meant to say he was a "faculty" member. LOL!</p>

<p>Hanna-
Pleading ignorance here-- what is the Putnam crowd?</p>

<p>** Oh wait-- I found it. It is a math competition. Do more of the Putnam math kids go to Harvard?</p>

<p>** Did my own HW again-- found this
[quote]
The trustees of the Putnam Fund also will award at Harvard University or at Radcliffe College the annual William Lowell Putnam Prize Scholarship to one of the Putnam Fellows. This scholarship is available either immediately or on completion of the undergraduate course of the successful candidate and carries a value of up to $12,000 plus tuition at Harvard.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL, jym. Nothing worse than faulty faculty, especially faulty biology faculty!</p>

<p>As for food quality, son will be visiting both schools during Passover, and so will only get to evaluate the food at the campus Hillels (which at both schools are, happily, making all meals available to prospective students who are observing Passover). During Passover, the concept of food is a relative one. I guess one school's cardboard could be better than the other's........</p>

<p>mamenyu -- thanks for the great info on music. I will review amypiano's posts and encourage son to check the archives of the Crimson and Yale Daily News. When we visited H last year the administrator in the music department mentioned that Robert Levin accepts a few undergrads each year, and it sounds like other full faculty accepts them, too. We did know that it is very, very tough for undergrads to get assigned to full faculty at Yale, and it has gotten even tougher since Yale made its graduate program tuition-free: Grads fill up all the available slots. After my son got his EA acceptance his piano teacher inquired on his behalf about auditioning (with Boris Berman or Claud Frank -- I don't recall) and was told not till fall, and then only on the off chance there are slots unfilled. We did hear, however, that some of the grad students who give lessons are quite good.
P.S. We heard Robert Levin in concert a few weeks ago.</p>

<p>I'm glad my food comment isn't being dismissed. D1 spent weekends at a number of schools (Ivy and not) and really woke up to the fact that if you feel good about every other aspect of a school (her major is "undecided") then the quality of what you eat three or more times a day becomes very important. Especially if there is a notable deficiency (rhymes with Artmouth).</p>

<p>Yes, Harvard does extremely well in the Putnam, both historically and in the last 20 years. It attracts a lot of killer math minds, undergrad, grad, and faculty alike.</p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lowell_Putnam_Mathematical_Competition%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lowell_Putnam_Mathematical_Competition&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I found a list of assignments for students and music teachers for Yale undergrad last year -- a long list, indicating lots of student musicians, but not promising regarding assignments to faculty. Not one of them had Claude Frank or Boris Berman as the teacher.
here is a copy of a post on CC from a couple years ago that was informative (but may be outdated)</p>

<p>"I'm a sophomore at Yale and a music major. I'll give you a brief run-down of my performance study at Yale and tell you what I think about the system. (Apologies for the long post!)</p>

<p>When I came to Yale, I felt 90% sure that I was going to get piano lessons for credit. I had been accepted to Indiana and Michigan university music schools (though not Oberlin); one of the Yale School of Music professors I spoke with thought that I would most likely qualify for lessons. I auditioned at the beginning of freshman year but was assigned to a graduate student. I was also assigned to a grad student at the beginning of this year.</p>

<p>The graduate students I've studied with have all been competent teachers, but certainly not as effective as a professor would be. I took a a few lessons with college professors in high school, and it's very, very different. Practice time can be a problem sometimes, but a bigger problem for me is getting motivated to practice when I'm doing 5 classes and various extracurriculars.</p>

<p>So, for me at any rate, Yale's system of undergraduate lessons just plain sucks. If you are confident that you would be admitted to somewhere like Juilliard, you shouldn't have as much of a problem.</p>

<p>From what I've seen and experienced, your best bet might be to do the following BEFORE making your decision to come to Yale:</p>

<p>1) Arrange to play for one of the School of Music faculty, ideally one you're specifically interested in studying with. Even if they don't feel you're ready for credit lessons, you'll have a connection with someone in the music school who might be able to help you later.
2) Talk to the music department or an SoM professor about getting credit for lessons with a graduate student. This is not officially an option, but I know of one case where a professor arranged for a student to do this with the understanding that the student would study with him the following year.</p>

<p>One other thing: while the undergraduate lessons system is not so good, the overall musical environment at Yale is amazing. If you're just interested in "keeping up your skills," there are plenty of opportunities to play.</p>

<p>I'm very sorry for not responding to your questions sooner. Before going further, I want to clarify my opinion about the Yale music program, and Yale in general. I meant to address only the undergraduate lessons situation, which is probably the biggest problem I've faced at this school. On the whole, my experience has been wonderful. I have been delighted by the professors, classes, extracurriculars, and especially my fellow students here, and I'm certain that I'm happier here than I would be at any conservatory--probably even any other college. Yale has forced me to confront a larger intellectual, social, political, and cultural world than I ever knew existed, even as music has become a much larger part of my life than it was in high school.</p>

<p>WindCloudUltra, your friends are right about the Yale music community; it's amazing. Timo and others are putting together an all-night concert of contemporary/student music for the last day of classes. This has become an annual tradition at Yale, and is one of a huge number of contemporary music events that are held here every year. This week, the composer Penderecki will be speaking to my composition seminar and later conducting various Yale ensembles in his "Credo."</p>

<p>The concert scene is the best anyone could ask for. You can go to a concert every night (or more frequently!) if you have the time; also, my residential college provides heavily subsidized tickets and transportation to the Metropolitan Opera in NYC each semester. Other colleges have similar arrangements for the Met or for Broadway shows.</p>

<p>I'm constantly amazed by the level of student involvement in extracurricular music activities--directing, playing in orchestras or theater pits, chamber music, etc. Often, the music being performed has been written or arranged by other students. A giant money pot known as the Sudler Fund provides the resources for just about any student production (musical, dramatic, or otherwise) you want to do.</p>

<p>Overall, if the undergrad lesson system is lacking, Yale's other advantages (musical and otherwise) are worthy of consideration even by very serious instrumentalists.</p>

<p>I believe Claude Frank and Boris Berman are very hard to get. Once again, if you are interested in studying with them, you really need to contact them personally or even arrange to play for them, ideally well before the start of the schoolyear."</p>

<p>Regarding science & chemistry at Yale, I don't think all the information above is accurate. I've also outlined a few good ways to make a choice between two schools here-- please see the post at this link: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1060159004-post48.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1060159004-post48.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>mamenyu -- You are a peach. Great information.</p>

<p>I don't know, wjb.. I hear the cardboard in CT. is better than the cardboard in MA, but the matzo balls in MA are hard and the matzo balls in CT are fluffy (like when you add seltzer) ;)</p>

<p>follow up, mamenyu: Son's teacher, who is well-known, was unable to arrange for son to arrange to play for Y faculty. As the poster you quoted confirms, lessons with faculty are a sticking point, but the general music scene is great.</p>

<p>jym: Son never met a matza ball he didn't like. A regular matza ball slut he is. So he won't be able to distinguish Y and H's food based on that.</p>