Hello everyone. I’m conflicted in making an early choice. While Harvard is my #1 choice, I am aware that my chances of getting in to Penn (my third choice) are significantly higher. Although I plan to attend medical school, I want to take some business/finance/economics classes. That’s one of the main reasons I’m attracted to Penn; you can have a minor in Wharton. Some of my stats : top 5% of competitive high school, 2320 SAT (800’s on three subject tests), solid EC’s.
You can take some business/finance/economics classes at H as well, you know.
Why is H your first choice? Can you encapsulate this to someone? Or is the cult of Harvard overtaking your judgment on numbers 2 and 3?
I forgot to mention that. After having visited twice, I fell in love with Cambridge since it feels like a quieter town right next to the resources of a large city. The Residential colleges and the community they foster are one of the biggest appeals to me (that’s why I also love Yale since it also has closely-knit residential colleges). Harvard is extremely well endowed so the resources it offers are unparalleled. It is also one of the few schools I know of that offers Neurobiology. Everyone I saw there looked happy and sounded determined and passionate. Is that good enough???
Penn is more preprefessional, especially at wharton. I would consider Harvard more focused on the liberal arts that Penn, so keep that in mind. And you called Cambridge a quieter town as one of the pros of Harvard, and that is exactly NOT what Philadelphia is. It’s a noisy, bustling, somewhat unsafe big city which I have learned to fall in love with because that’s my style.
You should always make your first choice your early choice, saving yourself from any what-ifs had you been bound to Penn.
Thanks @mf8088 . That has been my main dilemma. I feel like if I were to get into Penn, I would wonder whether I could have been accepted to Harvard. With regard to Philadelphia, I actually liked it a lot. It felt like a smaller, cleaner NYC. I don’t really have a preference for location, so a big city or smaller town isn’t a main concern.
And one last thing. You said you plan on attending medical school. Although all the ivies are known for grade inflation (although less so these days), Harvard is the main culprit whereas Penn and Cornell are said to have nearly none. And med schools arguably consider your GPA the most. That is another thing to keep in mind.
I am the biggest fan of Penn out there but if Penn isn’t your number 1 choice, then I would advise against applying ED. ED should really only be used if you genuinely believe that Penn is the place that would fit you best.
On a couple of points that have been mentioned:
I wholeheartedly disagree that Harvard, or any other Ivy, is more focused on the liberal arts than Penn. Penn’s core is its School of Arts and Sciences in which a plurality of students are enrolled and from which the vast majority of Penn’s scholarship is produced. Furthermore, because Penn has 3 preprofessional undergrad schools (Nursing, Wharton, Engineering), I found that the College attracted individuals who were even more steadfastly dedicated to the liberal arts but that also had an interest in supplementing their educations with the opportunities of a research university that prizes interdisciplinary opportunities. While the liberal arts and sciences are one of many foci at Penn, that does not mean that they are any less of a focus than the liberal arts would be elsewhere.
On the question of endowment, it is true that Harvard has a much larger pool of money but it is important to question what that really means for students. When it comes down to it, is there something you can do at Harvard that you would not be able to do at Penn because of the difference in the size of the endowment? I have yet to find a single, concrete example of it. Given your interests, however, Penn does have a couple of resources readily available to you that Harvard does not: Penn Med and the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania (and the Wistar institute among other health oriented institutions) are all located right on Penn’s tight knit campus-- Harvard med is separated from the undergrad campus by a river and a 1 hour walk. That means it is easy to do research and study with professors in fields that are clearly of interest to you, without having to travel miles and miles. That means you can do a University Minor between the Wharton and College, take your pre-med courses in the College, and do research at Penn Med while still making it to Houston Hall in time for your favorite club’s meeting or to grab dinner with a friend.
Cambridge is definitely cute. I happen to think that University City is not all that different, but everything feels small compared to NYC. The area around Penn is also not particularly dangerous. It is well patrolled by campus safety/the Police and there are tons of resources available to students if they should ever feel uncomfortable (which is possible in any of America’s large cities). Harvard’s and Yale’s residential college systems are indeed really awesome. Penn does have College Houses but it’s true that they don’t compare to H/Y’s in many ways. Though housing around Penn’s campus is really awesome. I lived in an apartment in a converted victorian home and genuinely loved the experience; I was a block from campus (could see it from my window) so I never missed a second of campus life but I had a space to retire to after a long day that was a little quieter than your standard college housing.
At the end of the day, however, if you don’t love Penn and feel it is your number 1, then I think it is a mistake to apply ED. I was in a similar situation between Penn and Yale and I chose to forego applying early to either of them. When I got into both during the RD round, I was forced to sit down and make a truly difficult decision. At the end of the day, however, I feel that had I applied ED to Penn I always would have wondered if Yale was an option. In choosing Penn once both were available to me, I was confident that I had made a decision that was based entirely on my individual preferences and not on the game theory of college applications lol. It would be unfortunate to be in a position where you’re always stuck thinking ‘what if’
Just some food for thought.
good luck!
Thanks @PennCAS2014 that was great input. I remember when I visited, I loved the fact that the med school was right there and that you can do research and potentially take classes there, like you mentioned. My favorite thing by far is that you can minor in Wharton, which is inarguably the top business school and an opportunity that shouldn’t be missed. How easy is it to take pre med classes but maybe get an internship on wall street? I have thought about doing finance so I would love to experience Wall Street and see if that’s something I would enjoy.
I would say it’s pretty easy. Penn is one of only a handful of schools at which virtually every wall street firm recruits so you will have access to all of the best internship opportunities. Furthermore, thanks to Penn’s one university policy, you have access to ALL of the same recruiting opportunities as all of Penn’s other undergrads, regardless of the school within Penn to which you matriculate. You will also have access to all of the same career services resources including advisors who will help you throughout the recruitment process and who know which firms take a greater interest in students with non-business educations. Finally, because you can take classes at Wharton while still completing your pre-med requirements, you will be at an advantage over pre-med students from other universities who don’t have access to the best finance classes that are geared towards undergrads. More students with a premed background who have an interest in business, however, choose to go into consulting rather than finance just because it usually provides them more opportunities to use their science knowledge.
And Penn students (in the College of arts and Sciences, specifically) do exceptionally well landing Finance internships. Over 165 students from the College reported taking an internship in the field of Financial services in 2014. (http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/CAS_SummerSurveyReport2014.pdf – Page 25-30). You can also see that a lot of those students working in Finance have Biology, Chemistry, HSOC, and other majors that would help you complete your premed requirements.
I would not recommend applying ED to your 3rd choice school, unless it is essentially a virtual tie and you had huge advantages in doing so. There’s too much room for regret.
That said, I’m not sure why you particularly prefer Harvard over Penn. The house system I can understand. It is very appealing. But you can’t have everything. Cambridge isn’t particularly a “quieter town”. Lots of traffic snarls and noise, and not much further from Boston than Penn is to Center City. As for all the “happy” Harvard students, there’s plenty of happy students and plenty of unhappy ones at both schools. Harvard generally gets poor marks compared to Yale for overall undergraduate happiness, however. I wonder if you are looking at this through Crimson-tinted glasses to some extent. But given your current perspective, I’d apply to Harvard SCEA.
@renaissancedad Yeah, I’ve thought this through, and I will most likely be applying to H SCEA. Yale originally was my top school after visiting once, but after visiting a second time it dropped to second because of New Haven.
@Perfectionist123 In terms of actual quality of education the differences between these 3 schools are minimal. Since you are interested in pre-med here is what I think these 3 schools have to offer.
Harvard has a lot of grade inflation, and GPA is super important for medical schools. Also Harvard is affiliated with the Partners hospitals, and especially Mas General and Brigham s, which are research powerhouses. However i am not sure what kind of access to research opportunities undergraduates have to these hospitals. Also as a Harvard ugrad you have slightly higher chances of getting to Harvard Medical School, the best medical school in the world. Alo the Harvard name and prestige has no rivals really.
Penn really does not have nowhere near as much grade inflation as Harvard, so you must work harder to get that A, but based on how many Penn people are successful Med school applicants, i would say it is feasible if you dont overload yourself and are smart about your workload and schedule. Also I know for a fact that as an undergraduate at Penn you have very easy access to research opportunities in HUP, which is also a research powerhouse and one of the best hospitals in the country and the world. I know a person who as a sophomore was working on research with Ezekiel Emanuel (the architect of the ACA and a Penn professor). Also as a Penn ugrad you will have higher chances of getting in the Penn Medical School, which is one of the top medical schools in the world and is considered just a notch below HMS and also produces amazing and pioneering research. Showing that you have done some research as an ugrad really increases your chances for Med School. Also since you are interested in business too, I would encourage you to look at the LSM program at Penn. This is a very selective program within Penn between CAS and Wharton, where you get a dual degree, one in life sciences and one in business. The LSM program is very competitive and in many ways it is harder to get into than even Harvard (for example the average SAT of the admitted students is over 2310). It is a very small program and students get unparalleled mentorship and guidance and a very close-knot of LSM alumni on top of the general penn alumni network. Most students are either future doctors who want to acquire business knowledge or people interested in business who want to specialize in healthcare/pharma.
Lastly Yale, of course will give you a beyond amazing undergraduate education, but might lag slightly behind in terms of medical research opportunities (even tho Yale Med is amazing too) and maybe exposure to the business world that the two other schools will give you. In terms of business recruiting obv all these schools do well, but Harvard and Penn slightly edge Yale. However Yale does have more grade inflation than Penn, which might prove useful.
Lastly, remember that Penn has ED so it is binding. However if say you apply ED to LSM (Which many people do), and you do not get in LSM and instead you get into general Penn (either Wharton or CAS), then the acceptance is not binding anymore. (in your application you can put the LSM program as your first choice and then as your second choice one the schools at Penn in case you do not get into LSM).
Thank you @Penn95 !
Know one is going to care where you went undergrad if you become a doctor.
That being said, what school should you target that will provide you the greatest chance to become a doctor?
- probably not the uber competitive Ivy schools