Harvard, you have been served

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<p>This is really hilarious. They will now complain that Harvard does not have enough Asian tennis players. Last year their women varsity tennis team was 100% of Chinese descent. </p>

<p>Perfect scores on multiple standardized tests achieved by training for these tests since kindergarten and nothing else (no, High School tennis does not count). When they find an Asian kid who won the first prize at the US National Math Competition and then was not accepted to any of the top universities* then they can file a real lawsuit.</p>

<ul>
<li>- Like it customarily happened with Jewish kids in the Soviet Union</li>
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<p>Maybe it’s because the ACT has become more popular. I guess this past year more kids took it than the SAT, so perhaps more energy (prep, books, kids who test well) are taking it now. Plus the SAT is about to get an overhaul and that may be driving even more kids to the known quantity of the ACT.</p>

<p>IDK. </p>

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<p>Would a black student with this profile be rejected?</p>

<p>Would a white student with that profile be rejected?</p>

<p>I think a white student with that profile could easily be rejected. My daughter exceeded all but one of the specific testing achievements mentioned for this student. Based on the information provided I would say her academic record was overall stronger. But she didn’t get in to every highly selective school she applied to. Does this mean they are also discriminating against Caucasian women?</p>

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<p>We don’t know, but we do not have to speculate about an URM with Hispanic heritage being rejected by HYPS with MUCH STRONGER test scores and qualifications. Much stronger as in dual 36 and 2400 SAT. And Val and all that good stuff! </p>

<p>xiggi This is in response to your post #7. I will address it one paragraph at a time.</p>

<p>“The first statement is utterly irrelevant as the “application rate” bears no statistical relevance to the outcome of a selection. There is no validity in claiming than an increase of 100 percent of a particular pool of candidates should yield an equal increase in admitted applicants. That is statistical voodoo, and not unlike most of the claims in that lawsuit.”</p>

<p>You missed the entire point of the complaint. Since the application rates are fluid for different ethnicity, the acceptance rates should also be fluid and not based upon a fixed quota. Quotas have been ruled unlawful and are not allowed.</p>

<p>The same applies to the qualification of the pool. The claims are always based on the a small percentage of top applicants that are rejected by the big name schools that happen to have 10 percent or less admit rates. Unless the claimants had access to the closely kept admission files, there is no way to present claims about the quality of an entire subgroups. Cynically, the same group that objects to be viewed as “all looking alike” seems to sell the notion that the entire pool of Asians happens to be equally qualified.</p>

<p>The claims are based upon those of the top applicants because those are the group of students who are generally the most deserving of admission. Try to make the argument that a “B” student with a 1000 SAT should have been granted admission into the top schools. Yes, the plaintiff’s will have access to " closely kept admission files" under rules of Discovery. Your belief that “there is no way to present claims about the quality of an entire subgroups”, you are wrong about this and this is why you are not trying this case.</p>

<p>“Further, the fact that the admissions have remained stable are de facto ruining the argument of a racial discrimination. For this to be demonstrated through simplistic mathematical averages, the percentage of over-representation of a certain groups should have dipped below the point of equal representation AND the number of URM should have gone the other way. The reality is different: the fastest growing segments of the population are NOT become more represented at school such as Harvard. Again, the stability of admission rate shows the contrary of what is claimed, which is an indirect way to ask for more … over-representation! And a higher pace than it has been so far in terms of population represention.”</p>

<p>Again you are wrong. Quotas are not allowed. Please distinguish percentage of enrollment by ethnicity versus admission rate by ethnicity. I am sure that the plaintiff’s lawyers will point out that the admission rate of Asian Americans are much lower than other ethnicity at each bucket of test scores and GPA.</p>

<p>“Lastly, most arguments of racial preferences will fall flat when the SES are introduced as a variable. The schools will have little problems indicating that they accept LOW numbers of poorer students on a rather uniform scale. In so many words, the schools should be able to demonstrate that they accept more Asians than any other race when they consider family income. If there is an inherent “discrimination” at a school such as Harvard is that they have paid MUCH closer attention to race than they have at increasing the number of lower SES students. And for that last part, we DO have compelling evidence courtesy of Carnevale et al. Evidence that goes well beyond the weak sauce a la Espenshade that is built on the flimsiest and narrowest of evidence such as SAT scores taken out of context.”</p>

<p>Wrong again. Similarly situated SES applicants should have similar admission rates across all ethnicity, I am sure the data will show that low SES Asian American applicants will again have lower admit rates compared to other ethnicity.</p>

<p>There won’t be any winners, but the outcome if debated correctly might end --once for all-- a discussion that has gone nowhere for the longest of times.</p>

<p>There will be a winner and a loser, much like in the college admission process. Given the trend of the Supreme Court to believe racism is no longer a problem, it doesn’t look good for Harvard and other top schools.</p>

<p>As to your comments about “legacies”, you are wrong once more. Washington and Lee is 85%+ White and it admits its legacies at about 50% acceptance rate which is about 2.5 times its normal admit rate. Who do you think is benefiting most by this policy?</p>

<p>pizzagirl comment "Page 27 is a hoot!</p>

<p>This particular phrase is troubling:
"Statistical evidence
reveals that Harvard uses “holistic” admissions to disguise the fact that it holds Asian
Americans to a far higher standard than other students and essentially forces them to
compete against each other for admission. "</p>

<p>If Asian Americans have higher scores on average, then even if admissions were done by pure lottery (take 1 out of every X Asian-Amer, whites, Hisp, Afr Am, etc.) then the “lottery-admitted” Asian American pool would have higher stats than the lottery-admitted white pool, the lottery-admitted Hisp pool, and so forth. That doesn’t prove “holding to a higher standard” - it just means that the overall pool “floats higher.”"</p>

<p>Your math and logic seem to be off. You assume in a lottery that all applicants will be put in the drawing pool. Believe it or not only “qualified applicants” get into this drawing pool. The argument of the lawsuit is that there are higher percentage of Asian Americans who meet the qualification levels to be a “qualified applicant”, thus if a lottery was done, more Asian Americans would be selected out of the drawing pool.</p>

<p>sally305 comments “Oh, good grief. This might be THE most desperate attempt ever of a student to get into Harvard.”</p>

<p>This lawsuit is not about this one student who wants to get into Harvard, but the bigger picture of racial discrimination in the admission process. This is about ending racial discrimination disguised as “holistic admission.”</p>

<p>Parent1337 comment “Why can’t a private institution do whatever it pleases? Does the government find some way to mess with their business via grant qualifications and such? Just curious.”</p>

<p>If a private institution does not receive federal and/or state funds, they can do what they please, but every college receives federal and/or state funds. Harvard for example received hundreds of millions of dollars in federal research funds each year and that does not include student loans/pell grants and other federal financial aid.</p>

<p>Periwinkle comments “It’s a debate over whether the university should prize intellect, or future leaders. I don’t personally think high test scores are proof of intellect. Standardized tests tend to favor people who are strong in both math and critical reading.”</p>

<p>Believe it or not, intellect and leadership are not mutually exclusive. Although some will agree with you that “don’t personally think high test scores are proof of intellect”, I’m pretty sure low test scores are proof positive of low intellect. Many would say the same about GPA. Harvard uses test scores in its admission decision so it does have value for Harvard’s purposes. If the tests are so meaningless do away with them in the admission process but most colleges use them, yes, even those schools that are test optional.</p>

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Harvard doesn’t have enough asian football players to further a compelling interest in obtaining the benefits that flow from a racially diverse football team.</p>

<p>I am happy to stand corrected, dear voice of reason, and remain in awe of your mastery of the issues in the claim. </p>

<p>I’m surprised these schools don’t just go “test optional.”</p>

<p>It will hurt the Harvard Brand if they are forced to take students based on test scores, only. </p>

<p>voiceofreason, see page 9, point 24 below.</p>

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<p>Standardized tests also favor those who have attended stateside Hagwons since the age of 5. A friends daughter attended one a few years back. The girl was a top student at one of the all girl independent schools in Manhattan but wanted to do some test prep. Another parent suggested a Hagwon. She said that most of the kids spent their entire weekends at the centers, practicing their SAT skills ad nauseam. One student confided that they want to do normal things but their parents force them to get perfect scores and that HYPSM schools are the only option for them. HYPSM or bust type of mentality. </p>

<p><a href=“Hagwons in U.S. | Michael Park's Blog”>http://michael90.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2008/12/11/hagwons-in-us/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Cram Schools: Immigrants' Tools for Success - The New York Times”>Cram Schools: Immigrants' Tools for Success - The New York Times; </p>

<p>The second article is almost 10 years old. </p>

<p>poetgrl It will hurt the Harvard Brand if they took students with High GPA but LOW TEST SCORES. </p>

<p>sally305 The lawsuit needs a plaintiff so it has one. But the people funding the lawsuit are not looking to get one plaintiff into Harvard, they want to end discriminatory admission practices.</p>

<p>xiggi When called out, revert back to sarcasm and mixed messages.</p>

<p>GMTplus7 is right. Why are Asian Americans underrepresented in most college sports especially in football and basketball if diversity is the benchmark? And why is it that when Asian Americans dominate a sport like golf and tennis, we hear comments like those by sally305.</p>

<p>Then you have comments like pizzagirl that “Because people who are book-smart but real-life dumb haven’t figured out that acceptance to Harvard is not predicated upon racking up X scores and X GPA and X extracurriculars. Because some people can’t possibly break free from the paradigms that they are used to, where college admission is predicated upon scores and nothing else.”</p>

<p>If getting into Harvard is not predicated on test scores, GPA, and EC then what is it predicated on? And why would anyone state that book smart people are real life dumb because they try to excel in Academics?</p>

<p>And while they are spending their childhood cramming for tests, other kids are out there experiencing life. Who do you think will discover passions that they own, not those rammed down their throats by their parents? Who do you think will develop better social, speaking, leadership skills? Who do you think will write better essays? Who do you think will interview better? This is all glossed over in the contention that having perfected their SAT-taking skills make them the better candidates.</p>

<p>The purpose of this lawsuit is to survive summary judgment and get discovery from Harvard. I predict that it will fail.</p>

<p>I’d like to point out one issue that often causes confusion in these discussions (and in the complaint, for that matter). It’s one thing to argue that Harvard discriminates against Asian applicants because it doesn’t like them or because it doesn’t want “too many” of them. That would be bad, and if you could prove it, it might even be illegal. Nobody has ever proven that about any college, as far as I know. We know that it can happen, because it happened to Jews, but that’s not the same as proving that it is happening to Asians now.</p>

<p>The question of whether Harvard is discriminating in favor of underrepresented minorities is an entirely different question. While doing this has an effect on Asian and white applicants, it is not done out of animus against Asian and white people, and has generally been held to be legal as long as some hand-waving about diversity or holistic review has been included. (For the record, I approve of this.)</p>

<p>mathyone Again, perpetuating the myth that Asian Americans have no life beyond Academics. Believe it or not they do.</p>

<p>Hunt not sure what to make of your statements. In essence you are stating that if Harvard denies racial quotas then even if the data shows otherwise, there is no racial quotas. We had similar discussion about Washington and Lee and that school has almost no diversity and you came up with similar arguments.</p>

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<p>What did I ever say about Asian-Americans and golf and tennis?</p>

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Surely you aren’t suggesting that all Asians are the same? The fact–and it’s readily observable to anybody in a community with a lot of strong Asian academic performers-is that there are many who participate in a very limited set of extracurriculars approved by their parents, and who work extremely hard to get top grades and scores. Some of these students do very well in college admissions, but perhaps not as well as they would like. There are other Asian students who do have broader interests, and they often do much better in admission to top colleges. This is because (in my opinion) they have a better understanding of what top schools are looking for.</p>

<p>Note: how many tennis team captains do you think graduate from high school in the United States each year? How impressive do you think this achievement is, if the student is not a recruitable tennis player?</p>

<p>@voiveofreason66, I am not perpetuating myth. I am referring to the article cited by NewHavenCTmom.
“Jeong Kim, an 18-year-old freshman at M.I.T. who attended the Elite Academy, said there was never any debate in his home over whether he would go to the school. From the seventh grade on he spent all of his Saturdays at the school. “Of course, I didn’t like it too much, but my parents said go, so I went,” he said.” …“Young Dae Kwon, director of the Elite Academy, said that many of the students have attended the evening or Saturday classes since they were in third grade.”</p>

<p>My daughter isn’t spending her Saturdays at a test prep school. She’s writing her first novel. Perhaps she may lose a few points when she takes the SAT for having done this instead. Perhaps colleges will find her more interesting nonetheless.</p>

<p>sally305 how did you delete the “This is really hilarious. They will now complain that Harvard does not have enough Asian tennis players” from this thread?</p>

<p>Hunt, really you are going there? Of course not!! All Asian Americans are not the same but I like how you generalize about Asian Americans in an effort to sound objective. </p>

<p>mathyone so you are going to generalize about ALL Asian Americans from the anecdotal experience of one Asian American student at MIT? So from your perspective all White daughters are now spending their Saturdays writing a novel because your daughter is doing so???</p>