<p>I agree, sopranomom, that we need to appreciate cultural aspects BUT draw the line at behavior that discriminates or treats anyone unfairly, cruelly, or intolerantly.</p>
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<p>Okay, you got me there, PG. Guilty as charged. :)</p>
<p>levirm: Great post. Thanks. </p>
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<p>Itachirumon, I empathize with that sentiment, I really do. Such concerns were ingrained in me throughout much of my life. However, upon allowing myself to venture out a bit I discovered that a lot of what I had been taught to think was unfairly exaggerated. What I thought were undeniable facts about certain people turned out be the dubious seeds of ignorance. Admittedly, I had to experience it firsthand to really appreciate the irony of living with fewer prejudices in the south than in the north, but that has been the honest truth …for me. I cannot tell you how glad I am that I did not let the prevailing anti south mentality with which I was raised prevent me from enjoying the social and professional advantages I have today. Those who insist on painting the entire region as if time has stood still since 1950 are just flat out wrong – not unlike my attitude before I actually moved. The thing is, it’s very hard to know the flavor of a place, in contemporary terms, when it is dogged by a nasty, terrifying history, the remnants and symbols of which are often used as evidence that time has, in fact, stood still. </p>
<p>Note Plainsman’s post in the W&L forum as an example: </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/washington-lee-university/1009696-what-w-l-really-like.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/washington-lee-university/1009696-what-w-l-really-like.html</a></p>
<p>I’m not suggesting that certain issues do not linger in some places, or that one does not need to be self aware. That’s true for most places on earth where there are people. I just don’t think the judgmental and incendiary comments some posters delight in throwing around about southerners, or southerners who are also Christian, are anymore useful than those of the homophobes, bigots, and religious zealots they claim to fear and abhor.</p>
<p>WOW- any discussion involving religion becomes passionate. </p>
<p>The blurring of public/private lines is important- just because the vast majority of a population is of a certain religion it is not fair to the minorities to have to get involved with the religion at public events- eg prayers at public events/schools. Maybe those who think it is okay would quit if the prayer were followed by a mandatory anti prayer disclaimer- equal time to the opposite party as politics and the media need to comply with. </p>
<p>I also would find it offensive to have someone tell me they are praying for me. All people enamored of any religion should use a coin analogy- look at your statement/position from the opposite side. If your religion makes you feel secure then there is no need to vocalize to anyone your “praying for them”- especially when that is actually a nasty comment and the actuality of spending time praying for those not of the religion/belief would preclude any time for any other activity, therefore a lie. Why is it considered okay to insult a nonbeliever’s views with this statement and not okay to state the believed fact that the person is stupid for those beliefs? They are equivalent.</p>
<p>One reason people object to socalled Christians making their views known is that they step on other people in doing so. No one likes to be considered inferior- those who say their religion is the “only” way, etc are maintaining a superior attitude. So much better to be like Christ than Christian, if you value what is believed to be true in the literature about him(ie the Bible). Better to be a good Samaritan than of the proper religion…</p>
<p>Recent decades have focused on the rights of everyone, not just those of the majority, regarding religions. Many old traditions in schools and other public places have changed as people realized that what they took for granted as a good thing was in fact horrible to others. Christmas vacation has become winter vacation, et al- even if the vacations continue to coincide with religious holidays of a majority of the population.</p>
<p>The question becomes- do all areas comply? Is it still common to use religious referenced language instead of eliminating the bias towards one set of beliefs? Some may have to look more closely at things they take for granted. I don’t mean in private enterprise such as Christmas sales by local stores, but in the language used by the city/county council and in the public schools for example. Do council meeting open or close with a prayer? Is there still a benediction at any school related event? Do public school teachers ever use god references in hearing of the class children (yes for someone I met at a Dallas, TX wedding- a grad student’s teaching spouse encounterd this)? </p>
<p>This sort of thing is subtle but wearing on those outside the belief system when encountered day after day.</p>
<p>Strong beliefs are not the property of those with a god-centered religion. Why shouldn’t others try to sway people to their ways of thinking any less than those with branded beliefs? </p>
<p>Back to the original post. No, my kid chose a school where his views are common. No need to try to correct a majority.</p>
<p>More than enough said. Hope some will realize what their daily actions do to others- and not in the way they thought. Not all you believe to be good is perceived that way by others. And, I have the advantage- I’m going to H anyway so I can speak out (being nice the first xty years did not make those others nice, why bother avoiding stepping on their toes?). Honesty is my principal virtue. Hope some see my other side of the coin view as a start to viewing how they appear to others.</p>
<p>PS- my H is your H and vice versa.</p>
<p>*What’s disingenuous is pretending that some of the anti southern, anti Christian comments in this thread reflect anything more than northern liberal bias and disdain. *</p>
<p>Very true…and from those who believe themselves to be more enlightened no less. The northern liberal bias and distain grows like an ugly systemic weed every time the South is a topic. Someone really needs to get in there and get rid of that blind hate for what they know little to nothing about.</p>
<p>*where might one be more likely to find school prayer at a high school football game? *</p>
<p>At a religious school, not a public school.</p>
<p>I recently attended a Catholic high school football game in Calif. The Catholic school was playing a public school. </p>
<p>Before the game, the priest opened with a prayer at the mic. Everyone (both sides) stopped and prayed. The public school side didn’t complain - they joined in. Totally legal since the Catholic school led the prayer (although I’m sure some nut might think that shouldn’t be allowed). </p>
<p>BTW…during the game, when a public school player got rather seriously hurt, the Catholic school players all got on their knees, joined hands, and prayed. Gee, who’d be insulted by that???</p>
<p>I can understand if a person would be offended if another person said “I will pray for you” to the statement that they said “I am not a believer,”. But if someone said “I broke my leg” and another responded, " Oh, I am so sorry, I will pray for you, ", I don’t see how you can be offended. If you replied in a rude manner to the second kind of situation, I think it simply shows incredible rudeness on your part. As I said earlier, I am a Christian. But if anyone said they will pray for me or wish me good thoughts when I did recently broke my leg, I said thank you. I said this even if it was a pagan, Muslim, Jew, or whatever religion they were. I don’t think that my God is offended by others prayers for healing or comfort.</p>
<p>*
As a liberal, atheist Washingtonian attending the University of Alabama, I’ve never had problems being a political and religious minority in the South. Your son will find friends whom he feels comfortable being around. These friends might share all his views or they might not. I have friends who are at the opposite end of the political spectrum and ones with different religious views from myself. Of course there are people who disagree with my politics and religious views, but I don’t know of any school where that wouldn’t be the case. Quite frankly, I appreciate having a variety of viewpoints so that I can better understand my own views and also so I can see the world from different points of view.*</p>
<p>I think people are wrongly thinking that the school is concentrated with ignorant faculty and students who mirror the stereotypes on TV and in the movies. </p>
<p>Frankly, I think there are some who so badly want that to be true. They are bothered that some southern schools are getting so uppity to think that they can rise in the rankings, be very mainstream, and attract students from all 50 states. Some think that southern schools need to stay on the low-tier plantations where they belong.</p>
<p>As for being Jewish at UA, UA has actually had quite a large number of Jewish students throughout its history. Back during the 1930’s when schools in the NE had Jewish quotas, UA advertised it’s lack of quotas and many Jewish students came down, attended UA, and now many of their descendants attending UA as 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation legacies. Also, UA has had a gay-straight alliance since 1982 and it is very active around campus.</p>
<p>Oh SEA_Tide…stop it…you’re breaking their polluted bubbles that believe that Alabama is just one big white bread school of fundamentalist Christians. LOL</p>
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<p>Whose field was it? If it was my public school, then call me “some nut.” If it was the Catholic school’s field, then everyone else is their guest and should be prepared to abide by their rules.</p>
<p>But SHOULD the Catholic school impose their prayers on everyone else, knowing perfectly well that there are going to be people of many faiths and-EQUALLY LEGITIMATELY–no faith at the game? IMHO, no, they shouldn’t. If they want to pray with their team in their locker room, more power to them. If they want to pray at the pep rally at their school, the same. But it is rude to deliberately hold a group of people who are there for a game, not a religious service, hostage to your faith. It is certainly within your rights. That doesn’t mean you should do it.</p>
<p>Although you didn’t notice, I bet there were plenty of people on the public school side who were less than thrilled and who may have stood out of respect but who didn’t join in. But they are invisible to the majority, who feel perfectly comfortable imposing their religion on the minority.</p>
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<p>What exactly would you consider to be a rude response?</p>
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<p>Uh, most Catholics? That is a pretty unCatholic way to act–not the praying part, but holding hands and getting down on the knees in a public place. Most Catholics would view that and think, “They’re doing WHAT now? What, do they think their prayers don’t reach God when they’re standing up? And now they’ve given everyone in the stadium the idea that that’s how Catholics act. Thaaaanks.”</p>
<p>Catholics are generally very non-showy.</p>
<p>Exactly. This showy let-me-show-you-all-in-public-how-pious-I-am is not a Catholic thing, that’s for sure. It also doesn’t escape my notice that when Catholics want religion in their schools, they start their own schools, as opposed to those who want religion in their schools and insist it be in public schools.</p>
<p>@FLVADAD – if those exxagerations really are exxagerations, then why all the anti-gay hate? I could make the argument for any other minority group but people tend not to scream their hate for other minority groups (if they hold those views that is, and Fred Phelps’ family excluded they just hate everyone who isn’t them) for fear of reprisal. LGBT’s are the only group people feel they can really get behind in the hate fest… well, and Mexicans/Hispanics and Muslims… those four groups are largely despised, everywhere. If LGBT’s weren’t the subject of discrimination, we’d have marriage equality, DOMA and DADT wouldn’t exist and we’d have the ENDA. If Mexicans and Hispanics weren’t the subject of discrimination, SB1070 would have never, ever, ever even been a scapegoat idea to write down on scratch paper during a brainstorming session, it wouldn’t even occur to someone. If Muslims weren’t the subject of discrimination… that pastor in Flordia wouldn’t have had the balls to say the things he did, then try to pull the move he tried to pull, and the “Ground Zero Mosque [Community Center]” story would have been a non-starter, people would have said “Yeah, so? Good for them” and it would have stopped there. But no, each of those contentious issues exist, therefore it’s still considered “safe” to discriminate against each of those groups. And for the Muslims, the fact that this is New York we’re talking about should give you an idea that this isn’t JUST in the South, of course it’s ALSO Ground Zero and that story touches everyone so it might also be considered an exception to the rule. Respectfully. While I haven’t directly faced discrimination, I’ve been called many nice names by bigots on discussion forums, before Propeller.com went down. A lot of colorful language gets thrown around about the gay community, the kind that causes things like the Rutgers incident.</p>
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<p>Really? What Catholic school did you guys play for? The one I played for did exactly as mom2collegekids described. What’s more, we didn’t even have a home field to play on (we practiced in a public park) so it was always at an away game. Interesting how you seem so sure in your convictions about it though… and yet… again… not exactly accurate. What mom2collegekids said definitely happens. And guess what? I see the take a knee, hold hands response to an injured player on the field in lots of games at every level, including at public H.S. games and the NFL – and not just the ones in the south. And yes, some actually appear to be praying. You’ve never seen this before? If not, I take it you guys have not witnessed many games where there have been long time outs due to what appears to be a serious injury on the field. And you know what else PG? Believe it or not, that solemn response springs from a genuine respect and concern for the injured player and his family. People who know and play the game recognize the potential severity of such injuries and take them very seriously as some can be debilitating or even life threatening. Only the most paranoid, cynical or uninformed among us would even bother to attempt to turn something like that into a “showy let-me-show-you-all-in-public-how-pious-I-am” accusation. As I alluded earlier, that kind of venom is just as blinding as the kind of religious fervor you associate with your Christian adversaries. Seems to be a bit of irony at play there.</p>
<p>Wow. Such unwarranted anger.</p>
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<p>Yes. They are a religious school. I don’t see how this would come as a surprise. Anyone who plays them in sports (or participates in any other activity with the school) does so voluntarily. So you choose to do something, and then get angry that it unfolds in a predictable manner? Some people cannot be pleased, I guess. And by the way, someone praying next to me is not “imposing prayer.” No one is being forced to actually pray. </p>
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<p>That’s not at all un-Catholic. Kneeling in public/community is not something that is forbidden on any level. What is discouraged is praying visibly for the sake of being seen. A group of Catholics (or Christians, etc.) reverently building solidarity in posture is hardly problematic. Kneeling is reverent, so I don’t see why this is theologically problematic, nor is it even uncommon in my experience.</p>
<p>I went to Catholic schools for twelve years and have relatives working at Catholic universities. And when I was at my Catholic high school, I played in the band at all the school games (and occasionally at basketball games for the nearby Catholic college). So I’ve seen many games and many injured players. Dropping on your knees in public is not a usual Catholic trait. </p>
<p>I recall a guest speaker at church who wanted everyone to start hugging at the Sign of Peace instead of shaking hands. He said, in a chipper voice, that he wanted the church to be known as “the huggy church.” You could just see the long-suffering looks on the faces of the congregation members. “You want us to do WHAT?” they were thinking. “Next they’ll want us to sing audibly at Mass.”</p>
<p>Sure enough, two weeks after the guest speaker left, everyone went back to shaking hands.</p>
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<p>Yeah, neither is hugging in church. But it’s Not Done. It’s not something Catholics normally do, or want to do.</p>
<p>*Uh, most Catholics? That is a pretty unCatholic way to act–not the praying part, but holding hands and getting down on the knees in a public place. *</p>
<p>Gee…I didn’t know that you had your hand on the pulse of “most Catholics”…Call the pope, he wants your services.</p>
<p>And since many Catholic schools do this, I would say that you’re wrong.</p>
<p>*This showy let-me-show-you-all-in-public-how-pious-I-am is not a Catholic thing, that’s for sure. *</p>
<p>EXCUSE ME…but when Catholics are faced with a situation that calls for immediate prayer, they should pray…and praying united as a community (as the players were doing) is not being “showy”. My family was taught to say a prayer every time we heard an ambulance or a fire truck or some other sign of someone in distress. </p>
<p>And…in case someone misunderstood…this game was in California…not the South. And…it was on public property…the game was played on a Community College field in Los Angeles County…so go nuts…LOL</p>
<p>BTW…if the opposing school had been Jewish, Muslim, or something else, none of the Catholics would have been insulted or aghast at any prayer or whatever that the opposing school would choose to do. </p>
<p>For instance…If Muslim players or a Muslim school had some ritual that their faith calls them to do (maybe at a particular time of the day), then they should do it and everyone else should be respectful. </p>
<p>We don’t have freedom from ever being exposed to displays of religion.</p>
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<p>Since many don’t, I would say you’re wrong. </p>
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<p>Sure. But do they do it by falling on their knees on the sidewalk and beating their breast? No. Because the important part is the prayer, not making sure everyone around you knows you’re praying.</p>
<p>No one is talking about beating one’s breast. We’re talking about kneeling and praying. </p>
<p>*And since many Catholic schools do this, I would say that you’re wrong.</p>
<p>Since many don’t, I would say you’re wrong. *</p>
<p>Uh no. I never claimed that all or most schools do this. I said “many”…which is true…and you can’t offer any proof that I’m wrong. Saying that many schools don’t do this is not any proof against that many others are. It could be 50/50 for all we know.</p>
<p>I said that you’re wrong for saying that “most Catholics” would not like this (most = majority). You have no evidence of that…you have no poll of such. </p>
<p>Of all the various complaints that I’ve heard come from Catholics over the years, not ONE has been over being upset at seeing football players praying for injured players. But, if you are one of those people then be happy that you have such minor things in your life to get upset about.</p>
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<p>Excuse me backatcha. My mother was Catholic. I was raised by a Catholic grandmother who went to church every single day for a while. I went to Catholic school as a young girl. It’s not the areas of the country that have a lot of Catholics in the public schools that have the prayers over the microphone prior to the football game. Good grief, why can’t we just call it like it is? It’s evangelical, it’s fundamental, it’s Baptist, it’s predominantly a Southern phenomenon when we’re talking about displays in public school settings.</p>
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<p>Sure. But what does some guy in the NFL have to do with anything? You are completely missing the difference between what an individual does and what a public school leads / sanctions. Do you see a difference between an individual in public school wearing a cross or crucifix and a representative of the school handing them out for students to wear in the stands? Same difference here. </p>
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<p>The issue here is not heartfelt concern for an injured player, which no one can quibble with. The issue here is people who “pray for your soul” and explicitly tell you that they are doing so and pray for you to accept Jesus and blah blah blah. Where might you expect a higher prevalence of people who might do so, for the OP’s secular Jewish son-of-gay-parents son?</p>
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<p>Absolutely. But a priest–or any other person praying–at the microphone definitely IS “imposing” his prayer on the assembled multitude. Some of the multitude may be perfectly happy with that, some may not. It’s just like prayers in school: any student is free to pray any time s/he wants. But when you get on the loudspeaker and start broadcasting it, that’s different. (Now the football game in question is a different kind of event than daily public school, of course.) </p>
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<p>Actually, I am willing to bet that at least some of the Catholics would have been aghast if an imam in robes got up and started a call to prayer mentioning Allah. There is a lot of anti-muslim feeling out there, as the so-called “ground zero mosque” affair shows. </p>
<p>A rabbi, they probably wouldn’t mind. In my Catholic upbringing, many decades ago, Jews were generally regarded as the other “real” religion and protestants were viewed as less serious players on the fields of the lord. :)</p>
<p>But in reality, it is fruitless to speculate about what a given group of people would have thought or done in other circumstances. For one thing, as I said earlier, the fact that some people may not have been happy with whatever sort of prayer was given or the fact that a prayer was given at all is not easily discerned in the first place.</p>
<p>Sometimes it is not so much whether one has the <em>right</em> to do something, but whether one ought to do something out of consideration for others. IMHO.</p>