<p>We lived in a southern state when S1 was in 1st grade in a public school. For open house in Sept., each kid made a silhouette of their head and then answered questions, like favorite food, favorite color, etc. The last question was “The most important thing in my life is…” As we went along the display, looking for S’s paper, I read over and over “Jesus…” or “Jesus Christ.” I know S’s response was going to be different, but I hoped he hadn’t written “Ninja Turtles.” Actually, he had written “My baby brother.” </p>
<p>We lived through grace/invocation at public school/university settings where significant portions of the public were non-Christian. We regularly had door-to-door proselytizers (often a white man, a handicapped person and a child), neighborhood children regularly sought out our kids to go to Sunday school with them. The best way to get rid of them was to say we were Catholic (H was and kids were baptized). </p>
<p>When we moved to a non-Southern state, we were relieved and delighted to not be forced to listen to overtly Christian invocations/grace at public functions and to see that our public school child’s winter concert featured Christmas, Hannukah and Kwanzaa songs.</p>
<p>Interestingly, speaking as a transplanted NE’erner living in the Mountain West, I was surprised at how church going (I won’t comment on the religiousness thereof) people here are. My daughter was one of only 2 students in her elem school class who did not attend church regularly. And I think the other one doesn’t go because she’s 1/2 Jewish. So I guess we’re the only official heathens. </p>
<p>Fortunately, its generally kept private. No prayer at school functions. Our kids are invited by their friends to attend various church sponsored things, and they go and have a good time, without much proselytizing that I can see. Or maybe they’ve gotten good at ignoring it.</p>
<p>also, let’s not forget: school boards in which general areas of USA keep trying to impose creationism as part of the curriculum, in lieu of or as an alternative theory to the theory of evolution? Certainly, NOT NJ, CT, NY, MA, etc. Creationism is a religious belief, and it belongs in a religion class in a private school, NOT in a biology class in a public school.</p>
<p>It’s disingenuous to insist that there is no significant regional difference, and depending on where you come from, you are FAR MORE comfortable in one region as opposed to another.</p>
<p>By the way, I admit a deeply religious Southerner with a strong conviction/belief on certain things s/he is used to and grew up believing in may also feel very uncomfortable in NE. It cannot be easy to be surrounded by people whose behavior, belief, and modes of operation constantly challenge and threaten your value system. I wouldn’t blame such a person if s/he feels that Northerners are just as narrow minded in their own way.</p>
<p>1) As you seem to think Pizzagirl’s statement needs empirical evidence or a rational explanation, I contend that you should explain why a government based on a belief system that has no empirical evidence or scientific reasoning behind it, is just as “enlightened and sophisticated” as one that is not. Forget the “better” part of her statement, that IS totally subjective and relative.</p>
<p>2) Perhaps it was poorly worded, but my contention is that since you cannot prove that a divine being is the source of authority for any religion, its role in government, even when supported by the people, is under false pretenses. Therefore a government which includes religion as part of its foundation is not as enlightened or sophisticated as one that does not…That is, only if you agree with me that enlightened/sophisticated=rational/empirical.</p>
<p>3)I did read the Leviathan back in the day as a political science major–I suppose your point is that a government is legitimate, however authoritarian, if it is by the consent of the governed. That still doesn’t make it enlightened or sophisticated. You say “rational arguments are abundant” to support (a divine power?). I don’t consider “the world is so beautiful and complex, how could there not be” a rational argument. </p>
<p>And currently, I prefer Richard Dawkins for philosophical engagement. :p</p>
<p>You know, I understand respect for other people’s traditions. When I visit a Christian family’s home (I am atheist) I say grace with them at dinner, or at least go through the motions. If I go to a mosque I take off my shoes. That’s just basic courtesy. But I think there is a difference between what you do in someone else’s home, their space, where they get to set the rules, and what you do in your own home.</p>
<p>I am not culturally Southern–far from it–but do I have the right to call the neighborhood I lived in for six years, and the school I attended for four, my home? I think so, and I tried to treat it like my home, but I never felt that it was, really. Which is not to say that I was harassed, or that anyone was unfriendly–although people who were more outspoken about these things than I was did meet with occasional hostility, I hear. But everyone had definite ideas about who We was–we do X here, we don’t do Y–and the fact that there were people around who didn’t match up with that didn’t occur to them most of the time. It wasn’t malice, it was oversight. </p>
<p>Which brings me around to my point. I live in a very culturally conservative suburb of Atlanta (if you remember the evolution textbook sticker controversy a few years back? that was us), but that’s still within spitting distance of one of the great liberal enclaves of the South. I don’t claim to know what the position of two-mom families is in rural Georgia, much less Alabama. But a lot of what people have been saying–I very much doubt that outright belligerence is the institutional position at a big state flagship like Clemson or GT, and I’m skeptical that it’s the majority viewpoint among the students. (Especially at GT, which I know quite well.)</p>
<p>In four years, there will probably be people who are obnoxious or rude about the liberal thing or the gay parents thing, and it will happen more often if you are vocal about those things. But the majority of kids will not be like that, and a small but significant minority will be culturally and ideologically similar to your son. Most kids are either okay with gay people (at my school it was more than half, but not much more) or, if they Don’t Approve, they will at least be Polite about it. You aren’t likely to get Leviticus readings or impassioned prayers for your soul. What you are likely to get is a lot of, well, Not Getting It. Homophobic jokes (but they were just kidding, they didn’t mean it like that!), innocent remarks about your family that are actually kind of insulting, strange assumptions, questions that seem to be predicated on the notion that gay people are some kind of alien species. You will probably have to explain, and you may have to justify, yourself, your family, and your way of life to people who are completely clueless about it. And then there’s the fact that no matter how polite the people who Don’t Approve are about it, or how warmly they treat you, they still think that you/your parents are sinners. That’s hard to get over.</p>
<p>I won’t get into politics, but culturally, you run into a lot of unspoken assumptions–oh, everyone does that, everyone thinks this! And you will have to point out that, um, actually, no, you don’t. Sometimes this involves arguing–but I wasn’t going to talk about politics. [cough] You are a cultural outsider, and you will be reminded of it a lot, and that can get tiring. Some people deal with it better than others. Some atheists make homes for themselves in Catholic Georgetown; some liberal Jewish boys make homes for themselves in the Deep South. But that’s not me–to me, a place where I am expected (even unconsciously so) to adhere to other people’s cultural norms is never going to feel like home. And I would encourage your son to think long and hard about whether the same is true for him.</p>
<p>Because–I think everyone should live among people who are completely different from them, who disagree with them, for a time. It teaches you a lot about why people think the things they do, and how basically decent people often hold views you think are totally repugnant. You will come to understand, viscerally as well as intellectually, how complex people really are, and how they constantly defy any assumptions you might make about them. I’m glad that we came to Georgia–and I also have no desire to do it again any time soon. My time there wasn’t bad at all. I was just really, really lonely, and it would be a sad thing for your son to go through college with the same sense of alienation I felt all through high school, I think.</p>
<p>It proves there are more than just conservative fundamental Christians in this area. I already said that my posts are referring to MY experience, which is a little broader than some of the posters who are saying things about the south without ever spending any period of time here. I also said my school experience is at a private school. I don’t know what else to say. I never indicated the southern states didn’t have further to go. My area has changed in the 15 years I’ve been here. I am in favor of legal gay marriage. I’ll continue to vote for politicians who reflect my beliefs. I agree that change comes slowly, but I also believe it will come. Staying away from a place because of what you’ve heard or because of what the media insists on portraying may not be what’s best for our country. We need to educate each other. To qualify this futher - I am not suggesting someone send there child to a place where they will not feel safe. Individuals have to do what is right for them, but if we are all afraid to move to a different part of the country because of what we hear about it, our country will remain segregated.</p>
<p>I have encouragement that the next generation is more tolerant than the last. I also think it is wrong to only attack the south for being conservative and closed minded. Sadly, there are many places in this country where a gay person will find opposition to their lifestyle. I know someone will now respond “that there are more of those places in the south” and there probably are, but not all southern cities and towns are the same. The discussion here started as a question of sending your child to school in a place that has different cultural/religious beliefs. People started attacking the south, so I thought I would share MY experience.</p>
<p>haavain -
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<p>Your post was very insightful. Thanks for sharing.</p>
<p>1a) That is not the question as you articulated it earlier, but we don’t have to dwell on that.</p>
<p>1b) At that point in the discussion, it had been established that persons believe in religion. PG wrote something. I responded, asking for evidence. The logical action to take subsequently is for PG to provide said evidence, not for me to prove why her statement is false. </p>
<p>1c) Furthermore, “no empirical or scientific evidence” is never an attribute that I associated with religion. I said that “no religion stakes a claim to empirical proof (although it may point to instances it feels supports its theology).” This is of course not the statement you made.</p>
<p>1d) Unless we would like to acknowledge our discipleship of Satre and his fellows, truth is not dependent on what is observable; Earth would still exist if all humans passed away.</p>
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<p>2a) You cannot prove using only empiricism that a divine being is the source of authority for any religion; that is true. The same claim could be argued for rationalism, but there are some who believe that one can rationally reach the conclusion that God must exist. This is a digression not worth pursuing, but it’s worth mentioning.</p>
<p>2b) Again, you take two completely separate statements and force a connection with no explanation. I fail to see how “its role in government” should be affected by whether or not it can be proven to be true.</p>
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<p>2c) I would totally disagree with your definition. If we would like to establish some, we can go ahead.</p>
<p>2d) See above for reasons that religion can be rational.</p>
<p>2e) If you have moral beliefs, they are based on assumptions that cannot be proven empirically at least.</p>
<p>Is the South a perfect place? No, of course not. There is no such thing. And for those of you who’ve lived here and have bad experiences, you of course see things through a different lens than I do. Our time here in TN has been wonderful; we’ve had some minor adjustments to make, but there’s a lot of attitude that I don’t miss from living in the NE. The South is, to my family, a much more family friendly place. The girls don’t dress like they’re in a rap videos, Facebook profiles don’t have the coarse language & suggestive pictures than the NJ friends profiles have and there’s not a lot of PDAs. Decorum at TN graduation was appropriate, joyful but respectful while at NJ graduation it was a free for all. As I mentioned earlier I don’t know how much of the difference is regional vs. socio-economic.</p>
<p>Since we’re sharing stories to make our points, here are a few:
my D got invited to her 1st Bar Mitzvah when we moved to TN. And her 2nd.
the only time my D cried during the relo, either before, during or after was when one of the kids in NJ taunted her mercilessly about “living with hillbillies.” The kids in TN did ask her to repeat saying “water” a few times, but that was it
In my experience, people with disabilities are treated with more respect in my area. There are more people with Downs Syndrome here (I suspect because in the NE a substantial # of couples who find out about a chromosonal (sp?) abnormality would terminate) and they’re not pushed to the edge of community. I’ve especially enjoyed watching how my younger D’s class have remained champions of a classmate with autism even through the awful middle school years. </p>
<p>In reading news headlines, the recent horrible events involving gay youth have been in the Northeast. The Rutgers student, the NYC gay gang attacks. I am NOT saying that the South is progressive with regards to gay rights, but please don’t paint either Coast as being that either. Nashville and surprisingly Birmingham have vibrant, visible gay populations (and I know people in each area.) </p>
<p>The OP wanted to know about her son feeling comfortable at a Southern school. I still maintain that the relative urban-ness (both location and size) of the school will have more to do with their experience than the geographic location. Honestly, kids don’t care about other kids parents. It’s all about them!</p>
<p>Not to their “lifestyle,” but to the essence of their being. It’s not like it is fine to be gay as long as you eschew an interest in interior decorating and show tunes and remain celibate. (Note: that was a joke. My closest gay friend is a hockey fan who isn’t interested in Broadway. Is that the “gay lifestyle”?) And certainly rejection of the innate equality and decency of gay citizens is present to some degree everywhere.</p>
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<p>The OP specifically wondered about sending her S to certain southern schools. People therefore began to talk mostly about how the child of the family she describes might fare in the south. If you look back you will see that there were plenty of posters who were eager to claim certain stereotypical virtues for the south, while of course rejecting the negative stereotypes. My view is that when you choose to give credence to stereotypes you are grasping a double-edged sword.</p>
<p>It is my experience at CC over a number of years that many posters expect northeasterners to simply accept the idea that they are percieved as “rude” by people from the midwest and south, while southerners are not expected to simply accept the idea that their region is perceived as having greater religiosity and that outsiders do not necessarily feel comfortable with it. Note that I said “perceived.”</p>
<p>New Englanders do not feel that they are “rude.” They may feel that maintaining a certain reserve among strangers is appropriate and dignified. They may experience the “friendliness” of Southerners as intrusive and/or fake, just as Britons often experience the “friendliness” of Americans as “rude.” Moreover, no region is monolithic. New Jersey is not New England.</p>
<p>I certainly appreciate that you and everyone else who offers their personal experience does so in the knowledge that it is their personal experience, and that such experiences vary. I would think that goes without saying. Thank you for sharing your experience.</p>
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<p>I think you are correct in this. Graduation in our town in Maine is solemn and joyful. There are no air horns and exhibitions. People would be absolutely shocked. Kids with Downs and Asperger’s are integrated into the school and sports teams. Kids with more severe disabilities are integrated into the elementary schools, although they may move on to more specialized schools later.</p>
<p>I think that’s wrong too. But the south is more conservative than the north and proud of it. Many southerns pride themselves on being different than “Yankees” (“girls are less vulgar”, etc.) but if you point out that’s wishful thinking, then one is “attacking the south.” </p>
<p>For example, 90% of couples who find out via prenatal testing that their baby has Downs Syndrome end the pregnancy. That’s across the board of religions, geography, etc. As for being pushed to the edges of society, here in Texas we still have “state schools” that people with disability are literally hidden away in and abuse is rampant. </p>
<p>Further, girls most certainly do dress as inappropriately as anywhere else in the country. The south is just like the rest of the country in terms of problems, although the denial about that is, in my experience, uniquely southern. If I hear one more time about southern girls are more “innocent” or whatnot, I’m just going to go ahead and have the teen pregnancy rates broken down by state tattooed on my forehead. Ditto divorce rates and the south being so much more family-positive.</p>
<p>Baelor, if we disagree that rationality is equivalent to enlightenment then there is nothing more to say, but I would be happy to continue this debate in another thread if you wish. I feel badly about sidetracking here. However, I can’t resist zooming in and responding to a point you make.</p>
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<p>I would really like to “pursue this digression” in another thread because I honestly would like to hear the thought process that you claim rationally reaches such a conclusion. Every believer I have ever discussed this with always ends up saying that it is a question of faith. They admit they have no rational arguments.</p>
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<p>Perhaps you should think for yourself more.</p>
<p>*But a priest–or any other person praying–at the microphone definitely IS “imposing” his prayer on the assembled multitude.</p>
<p>He is forcing them to listen to his prayer, yes. Sort of how when I attend a concert voluntarily, I am perhaps forced to listen to some opening act that I do not like.*</p>
<p>The opposing side’s fans (nor the “Catholic fans”) were being forced to listen or participate.</p>
<p>The audience was free to ignore what was going on (daydream), go to the bathroom, go to the concession stands, or chat with the person next to them, etc. We’re talking about something that lasted about 45 seconds…big deal…get over it. Or stick your iPod earphones in your ears.</p>
<p>This wasn’t much different than a public school trip to visit Congress and the class is respectful when the chaplain or whomever opens the day with a prayer. </p>
<p>I’m reminded of the earlier attack on the World Trade Center (the one with the bomb). There was a public school field trip that day. The teacher and the students were trapped in an elevator for many hours not knowing if they would ever get out alive. The teacher (not from a southern school!) led the kids in prayer. OMG…how awful…LOL But, I’m sure there are those here that think that even in that instance, the teacher shouldn’t have done that. </p>
<p>People who are so offended by such minor things really need to get a grip or be grateful that they have some minor things in their lives to upset them.</p>
<p>We have much to say. Rationality is a requisite for enlightenment; I hardly consider it the only one.</p>
<p>From a dictionary:</p>
<p>Enlightened: having or showing a rational, modern, and well-informed outlook; spiritually aware</p>
<p>Sophisticated: aware of and able to interpret complex issues; having, revealing, or proceeding from a great deal of worldly experience and knowledge of fashion and culture</p>
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<p>I hardly find it appealing to continue any discussion in which those engaged cannot fulfill the simple task of reading posts. I never claimed that one can rationally reach such a conclusion, at least in the post which you quoted. </p>
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<p>I’m not interested in your anecdotal evidence. I’m interested in what exists. Have you read any theologians, or religious philosophers? Of course it is a question of faith. But that faith is not arbitrarily placed; a rational process can reach it. In fact, the process that is used to establish a person’s moral system, regardless of what it is, is (ir)rationality mixed with faith. Religious persons are not the only ones who take things for granted.</p>
<p>(1) dressing innocently does not mean that they don’t do the “deed”.</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>(2) religion based abstinence only education is a dismal failure</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>(3) both of the above.</p>
<p>So, let’s stop talking about how certain conservative, family oriented value system that produces demurely dressed girls prove anything about the actual behavior and its consequences.</p>
<p>(by the way, what are we going to do with Delaware?)</p>
<p>Excuse me for presuming that you are one of those people who believe that. </p>
<p>Sorry Baelor, I would be happy to continue this discussion in the parent Cafe, where you can sum up some of the arguments of all those theologians you have read that give rational arguments for the existence of God. But just because you have recently read some theological philosophers in your undergraduate studies, does not mean that you have better arguments than someone who has been reading about, and more importantly, contemplating the question, some 30 years longer than you (of course, the reverse is true as well). The arguments on the question of a rational defense for the existence of God should stand by themselves, but you have not presented any and have misrepresented what you yourself already wrote.</p>
<p>PM me if you want me to start a thread elsewhere.</p>
<p>It certainly strikes me as southern, or more precisely, Texan to even think to compare a terrorist attack with a football game. </p>
<p>Perhaps surprisingly to some, not every one thinks they are of equal importance or that behavior at one is indicative of appropriate behavior at the other.</p>
<p>Regarding the pregnancy rates: I agree that talk and cultural attitudes don’t always equal low pregnancy rates. I personally think abstinence only education is a joke. Yes TN is on the list, but going back to my comment about rural vs. suburban: my current county has a pregnancy rate of 15/1000; TN is 56/1000 while one of our most rural counties is 76/1000. Our old county in NJ is 20/1000; NJ is 27/1000 while the most rural NJ county is 77/1000. </p>
<p>Biology doesn’t discriminate across state lines; teens are going to want to have sex. No matter what their parents think and even if their dad buys them a True Love Waits ring (which I think is uber creepy, but I digress.) In my neck of the woods, the girls do dress much more modestly. So much so that when DH & I made the trip down to evaluate the relo, that was what we talked about during our stop at the local mall: that the little girls dressed like little girls. Not everyone of course, but our schools enforce dress codes big time. Prom dresses were much different here than pics that I saw from friends in NJ & FL. Does that mean that they didn’t get busy in the back of their boyfriends car after prom? No!</p>
<p>And PMK: now I’ve got the old Candid Camera skit where “Delaware is closed today” going through my head ;)</p>
