Haverford and Swarthmore

College Search & Selection
21

<p>Well, as a physician who trained at Penn, all I can say is that I'm thankful to know that the destinies of college graduates with jobs and graduate schools are not decided by a Penn undergrad. It's also good to know that such people are often left humbled by their competition once they graduate into the real world.</p>

<p>Talking about who we consider "peers" and "equals" is not very common at HC... maybe more common at a place that produced and attracts the likes of Donald Trump and his puffed up ego and vulgar elitism. By contrast, John Whitehead (HC alum), former chariman of Goldman Sachs, wrote an op-ed piece a month ago discussing CEO overcompensation and issues of fairness. </p>

<p>As my sister, bro and I went to BMC, SC and HC, my parents would not be happy if we took classes at Penn... why should we pay for professors and be taught in small group by a grad student or have our names forgotten by professors? There are certainly many valid reasons to go to a place like Penn, but none of them particularly resonated with us.</p>

<p>At least this one Penn student felt there was something to be learned at HC.</p>

<p><a href="http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2006/01/24/Opinion/Partying.Like.It.Should.Be-2145943.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2006/01/24/Opinion/Partying.Like.It.Should.Be-2145943.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Regarding some other points here... it's Swat and the Bi-co, not Tri-co. While cross registering in the Bi-co is easy (about 4000 a year), very few people use Tri-co academic course registration as the travel time is burdensome. HC may be small, but together with BMC, the social mix, course selection and other opportunites matches the environment of a much much larger college. How many LAC students can say that, in the last 10 years, they had 2 chances to see the President of the US, a VP candidate, several senators and one Governor? </p>

<p>Not needing and saying you don't need an honor code are not the same thing. In addition, as demonstrated here, the presence of an honor code also makes HC's applicant pool somewhat "self-selected" so you wind up with a group of kids who may be more interested in such issues... clearly, not for most people but great for some. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=326716%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=326716&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

22

<p>I'll rephrase.</p>

<p>The quality of education is no different at Penn than at Haverford or Swarthmore (nor will I leave that rhetorical loophole open to allow you to suggest is it worse...yes, it certainly takes more effort than it would at an LAC but if you make that effort, you will find faculty who love working with you. I know my faculty by first name and have an excellent relationship with them. We've even gone out drinking).</p>

<p>That being said, the difference (and true value) of moving up the snob-appeal totem pole is the power of your alumni network, your connections, your prestige.</p>

<p>For example, many cities have "Ivy Plus" clubs, exclusive and self-aggrandizing networking shindigs between alumni of the Ivies, Stanford and MIT. Most also allow Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore as well. Haverford, not so much. The connections one makes here are invaluable. The name brand of your top school getting you "in the door" to entry-level jobs after college is equally invaluable.</p>

<p>Is this fair or even rational based on distribution of student quality? Absolutely not. But that's the way it is. And I'd be lying if my family and I didn't consider the power of networks (network externalities, wooo!) in picking a college.</p>

<p>(and yes there are exceptions to every rule...it's not as if no haverford or swat person has ever been successful!) I am of course speaking in sweeping generalizations...as one inevitably does when describing institutions that have included tens of thousands of individuals...</p>

23

<p>This is not directed at JohnnyK's last post, but, PLEASE, let's not assume that one Penn student is representative of the attitudes of all--or even most--of Penn's 9600 undergrads (and I recognize that HC Alum was NOT doing that). Similarly, let's not judge a school by one alum (Donald Trump's public persona is NOT typical of Wharton grads).</p>

<p>I think there's a real tendency in general, and especially when discussing colleges, to draw conclusions and generalizations based on a few individual experiences or anecdotes. The best thing for any applicant or parent to do is to gather as much REAL information from as many sources as possible before judging the character of a particular school. Remember the story about the blind men trying to describe an elephant?</p>

24

<p>"Not needing and saying you don't need an honor code are not the same thing. In addition, as demonstrated here, the presence of an honor code also makes HC's applicant pool somewhat "self-selected" so you wind up with a group of kids who may be more interested in such issues... clearly, not for most people but great for some."</p>

<p>Actually, my son feels very strongly about such things as honor. In fact his martial arts training that he's had for most of his life has been about living honorably, honestly and giving back to others. So strongly does he feel about these things, that he teaches young children every week and volunteers at a battered women's shelter in a program helping women reclaim their self esteem. It's fair to say that he lives his whole life by an honor code. Saying that...he found the continuous assertion that Haverford was 'special' because of it's code to be against the very nature of what one would suppose someone interested in honor would be about. You shouldn't get points for being honorable. You just should be honorable. </p>

<p>On top of that, the entire tour was about the honor code and then the single essay asked about it again....not about personal honor code or how one felt about honor but it asked the applicant to discuss Haverford's code.</p>

25

<p>"... such people are often left humbled by their competition once they graduate into the real world."</p>

<p>Another truth.</p>

<p>Possibly a lot of people who choose these liberal arts colleges believe that who you are, the nature of your actual abilities, will in most cases determine where you wind up. And to the extent a "network" is helpful it is more likely be that of your, usually graduate, terminal degree. So for an undergraduate school they value most highly the colleges they believe will best help them develop their actual, individual abilities and promote their personal success, as they define it.</p>

<p>There are indeed cases where an undergraduate "network" has dictated someone's future. But in my experience this is far from the norm. So to all who are predicating their entire college selection on this one thread of belief, I say hope this angle works out for you a lot better than it has for me or the people I know. </p>

<p>What I see mostly is employers hiring people who they think will do the best job for them. It's too tough out there to take somebody worse just because they went to your school.</p>

<p>Mostly.</p>

26

<p>yeah, it wasn't the fact of the Honor code- which other schools have too- it's how much they harped on it. It just shouldn't be that big a deal in their minds as it seems to be.</p>

<p>I myself, personally, have a problem with Honor codes. Because at one of my alma maters we had an exam on the Honor code and I know for a fact, but would not be able to prove, that one guy used it as an excuse to cheat. And he got away with it. And went on to med school. And it ****ed me off. I think it's an excuse for Professors and colleges to abdicate their responsibility for monitoring tests and exams to ensure that all are playing fairly under the same rules. Sort of like playing baseball with no random drug testing. I believe that under such circumstances, abuse is inevitable. And it screws the people who play by the rules, and rewards the successful cheaters.</p>

<p>But notwithstanding my personal slant, schools are indeed using this system. And Haverford is one of them. They should just shut up about it at that, IMO.</p>

<p>My daughter didn't really care about it, didn't apply for other reasons. But she too thought their degree of focus on it on the tour was disproportionate to its significance.</p>

27

<p>I visited Haverford last September with my daughter and was also surprised that most of the presentation on the tour was about the honor code. I tend to feel that those who benefit from academic honor codes tend to be the cheaters. I know that that is open to debate.
What bothered me more was that most of the presentation was about behavioral honor codes, with students reporting each others' behavior to the administration and to student honor panels. This reminded me of some of the most repressive governments in recent history.
My daughter thought the Admissions building looked like a massive ski lodge and was unimpressed by the tour guide. She was not interested in applying.
I know for certain that Haverford is a fine school, but a limited one day visit dropped it to the bottom of my daughter's list. I wasn't arguing with her.</p>

28

<p>Although for me and DS the continual iteration of the Honor Code was a turn-off, as I mentioned before the young friend of my son who applied to Haverford ED is a fine and highly intelligent young man. He was quite impressed by the honor code.</p>

<p>I have a dear friend who is a Quaker who takes things more seriously than I do, not that we disagree at all. It's just a difference in emphasis. I think the differences in good LAC's is the same: all ice cream, just different flavors. There's always somebody who loves strawberry and somebody who hate it.</p>

<p>HC Alum: I've enjoyed your posts and have no doubt your experience at Haverford was stellar.</p>

29

<p>Just to head back a few posts ago: yes, I meant co-ed by room, a man and a woman sharing a room together. CMU now has such dorms and there are others considering such moves.</p>

30

<p>1) Coed roommates: HC was the 3rd college to allow coed roommate assignments after Hampshire and Wesleyan. The reason for this was because, to assume that roommates of the same gender don’t have sexual tension, assumes that they are straight… a gay or lesbian student may feel more comfortable with someone of the opposite gender a la “Will and Grace”. This option is only for upperclassmen and I believe they have to speak to the housing director to get “approval” and it’s not really used much. It’s rather a statement of equity.</p>

<p>“The Elites”: I don’t know about you guys but speaking about “who’s in the cool club” seems a little “high schoolish” to me. In addition, spoiling yourself with the mentality that your particular group has an advantage/ is better off, better positioned, or better equipped often overestimates your abilities while seriously underestimating those of your competition… like I said, in my observation, it leaves people humbled. From Napoleon to the Vietnam War and current events now, we see the error of such thinking. As a HC alumnus, I’m surprised that I feel I need to “defend” HC here as I feel that the combination of HC + (the resources of BMC + easy access to Philly/east coast corridor) makes the resources of a HC experience difficult to match (HC by itself in the sciences is probably in the top 3 for LACs). </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2967259#post2967259%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2967259#post2967259&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Despite this, it’s my experience that if you go to a top 50 college/university, it’s really all the same once you graduate and matters less as you have more life experience. As a side note, I’ve been dragged to the Penn Club in NYC enough times (once) to know that 1) Penn actively recruits BMC, HC and SC alumni to join (just look it up), 2) It’s not “ALL THAT”, 3) If you want to join a gym, your $ is better spent at NYSC and 4) The drinks are weak and over priced even by Manhattan standards. </p>

<p>Honor code: When I wrote that the honor code "self-selects", that wasn't to imply that people who choose to go elsewhere are worse people... that would be absurd. It was in regards to attracting kids who are interested in living in an intentional community with everything that entails... both it's +/- and the frequent late night debates stimulated by these +/-. HC’s honor code is COMPLETELY UNIQUE but what makes the college different isn’t really the code itself but RATHER THE QUAKER PROCESS THAT CREATED IT. Sure, several colleges have honor codes but it's not accurate to think that an honor code created out of military culture or southern chivalry (UVA, Davidson, Military Academies, W&L) is the same flavor as one created based on Quaker ideals of consensus and inner light. The point isn’t simply to “not cheat” but rather to challenge yourself intellectually with questions like “Can honor be codified?", "What’s your capacity to trust/respect/forgive others?" and “How do you rectify having perfect standards with an imperfect community?”, ect… These questions have been debated @ HC for the last 100 years and this prepares you for the real world. In med school, we often debated issues with the Hippocratic oath and it was really interesting (and somewhat of a flashback) to see classmates wrestle with issues of professionalism, ethics and conduct that I resolved for myself years prior. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...d.php?t=326716%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...d.php?t=326716&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>