I do not know where you are getting your information from, but students are not doing it. And not because the number of kids who qualify is low, most kids accepted to Haverford are on the smarter side, (if not URM, athletes, legacy, etc.) I get why you like LAC’s, but you don’t seem to understand that many students in college do have specific goals, and there are certain ways and schools for reaching them. Stevens does have other choices for students who like math and science, but they are a powerhouse for engineering. I understand why you might think the exposure of a LAC is nice, but look at the world around you. Most kids graduationg from LAC’s that are not going to grad school or have a specific degree cannot get jobs. I do not think paying a quarter of a millon dollars for a “valuable” college experiance is worth it when you can’t get a job when you graduate. And BTW, most kids have a good college experience wherever they go.
experience, sorry typing fast
Wow, way to stereotype much? Are you a Haverford student?
Here’s a “rule” for you: Not everyone can AFFORD the LUXURY of following one’s bliss academically for four years in the hope of qualifying for a very competitive, very expensive master’s degree program. And plenty of engineers veer from the “standard path” and go into other fields. I know trained engineers who have had successful careers as surgeons, patent attorneys, and business owners.
Also, let’s be clear, it’s not like my kid, who ended up at Big State Flagship, couldn’t major in physics or mathematics and apply to graduate schools for engineering if that’s what he wanted to do. And Stevens offers majors outside of engineering as well: http://www.stevens.edu/sit/admissions/academics/undergraduate_programs.cfm.
This is not to disparage Haverford or its engineering programs, but I hope it’s understood that plenty of engineers also earn master’s degrees a year after completing a B.S. And a lot of schools (like Lehigh) don’t charge for that fifth year.
Penn’s got a great engineering program, but it’s hardly the only or the best option for every student. If you intend to go to Penn or Caltech (for the 3:2 program), you better be pretty exceptional in your major or else you may join the ranks of new college grads trying to figure out the next step. It’s not like all Haverford graduates automatically go on to high-paying, amazing jobs.
Get the actual numbers for engineering students at Haverford. Only way to see how lone you would be in the endeavor.
Also, how much you like a school, how it fits you can be an important factor. My kids did not like Cornell, BC and ND., along with a number of other highly desired schools. My current son would have picked Haverford over those schools and Lafayette in an instant.
Engineering students at Haverford? 0 (I think). My son was one, and switched over to pre med. We realized our mistake in school choice for engineering too late, son chose Haverford because he liked the “atmosphere” of the school. We are very, very lucky the way things turned out, had he not changed his path it could have been a disaster. Two of his friends who graduated from Haverford last spring cannot find decent jobs, and they both have substantial school loans. We now have another son getting ready for the college process, and this time do it with our eyes wide open.
@son3hereagain - “most kids accepted to Haverford are on the smarter side, (if not URM, athletes, legacy, etc.)’”.
My kid is a recruited athlete who’s ALSO more than “on the smarter side”. I’m sorry that you have regrets about your son’s situation at Haverford, but let’s stop with the disparaging stereotypes.
No sterotyping here, my son was also a recruited athlete for track. He had a 2320 SAT and 3.9 unweighted GPA. He also has a friend who was recruited who had a 1850 SAT and 3.4? or so GPA. I am not saying all URM’s, athletes, etc. are not smart, but some would not be in without that extra pull. And I no longer have regrets about my son’s situatation at Haverford, he is now hoping to go to med school and Haverford is a great feeder. If you read my previous posts, it was when he was pursuing engineering that Haverford was less than desireable.
What son2hereagain is saying about engineering through Haverford may be true - or not - but the poster obviously has a negative slant on the school so do your own fact checking.
There are recruited athletes at any school but much, much less at Haverford. The school just doesn’t work that way, much to the disappointment of some rejected athletes. (There have been NYTimes coverage of Haverford and athletes in the admissions process if you want to check it out). Haverford consistently tops the academic honor rankings in its athletic conference, which includes schools like Swarthmore and Johns Hopkins. Men’s Track, the team son2hereagain mentions above, is the true standout, with 18 teammates making conference academic honor roll this winter. And this is a team with an illustrious athletic performance record, especially for such a small school.
The poster’s comments about LACs and jobs after graduation are ridiculous as well. I know many recent Haverford grads, across all majors, who have positions lined up prior to graduation.
http://haverfordathletics.com/genrel/2015WAHR
A point of clarity to any potential students reading through this thread as a correction to another comment by son2hereagain above -there is also no pre-med major at Haverford. There is pre-Health advising and the school will assist you in taking the right courses to be ready for medical school and it does have a good track record of getting students into medical school.
Jeez… I do not have a negative slant on the school. And doschicos is correct, it is not called pre med at Haverford but there is a pre med track that has an excellent med school admissions acceptance rate. My partner graduated from Haverford and is one of the finest physicians I know. I also never said that no one gets jobs after Haverford, my son just happens to have 2 friends that didn’t. He has other friends who did and many who are going to grad school. The only bad thing I have said about Haverford is that it is not the place to go for engineering, and it was my fault for not doing my fact checking before my son decided to attend. Doschicos is again right, everyone should do there own fact checking. We did not, and that was our mistake.
I have to find more things to do on my days off.
BTW, you are right, the track team is great. I may be prejudice, though.
By your very own rule…some can afford that luxury. Assume I’m speaking to them.
You appear to have ignored my comments about the risks associated with that strategy.
For argument’s sake, lets assume some trust fund kid with 2380 on their SAT, all-state athletic honors, a few humanitarian awards, and one of the best interviews in the history of college admissions is struggling to balance two issues: Engineering major vs. wanting to be at Haverford. It is possible (risky and expensive…but possible) to have both. I agree with the comments that “Haverford doesn’t have Engineering”…it doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be an Engineer AND attend Haverford.
“High paying job” appears consistently to be your only goal. That alone has the potential to enslave graduates to a life of relative comfort and misery. I’d rather develop a high paying career doing something I enjoyed (but struggled to do financially after graduation), versus looking at every decision through your short term cost/benefit lens.
I understand many folks need to make choices based on finance; but that’s not everyone, and the interactions on this topic with its creator suggest money isn’t the only consideration is selecting a school.
@Eyevee- My son did fit most of the criteria above (not quote trust fund kid, but not in need of any aid, and I can’t comment on interview) and still Haverford and Engineering were not only risky and expensive but a downright uninformed choice for us. I have no one to blame but myself, and as I posted before everyone needs to do their own fact checking, I was certainly guilty of not doing mine.
I don’t believe LucyTheLake is trying to discourage anyone from having a career that they enjoy, we all want that for ourselves and our children, but realistically I doubt there are many on these boards who fit the “trust fund kid” you describe. College is a time to explore, grow, and learn new ways of thinking and being. But is also a time to prepare for our future selves and careers, except perhaps for the very, very, few for whom money never has been, or will be an issue.
@son2hereagain , I get your point, and appreciate the frustration. While the trust fund example is obviously a rarity, many parents (including you) are “lucky” enough to not qualify for aid. In those situations (about half of all family’s making $100k+ pay for school out of savings / earnings), I try to consider how I’d feel writing checks to the various schools.
I REALLY like Lafayette. It’s a very good school with a beautiful campus. I think the leadership is making good decisions on improving the perceived value of an education their. I was there several times last year, and each visit went well.
That said, I think there is something special about Haverford. I have no connections to the school…I’m not an alum or parent pushing an agenda. In reviewing my career, and considering the rapidly changing workplace (who would have ever thought they’d be emailing global colleagues from their phones while on vacation 25 years ago), I believe the skills that will ultimately deliver a successful career are decreasingly technical, and increasingly cognitive. It’s a feeling…but I think that’s the struggle that started this topic: Head vs. Heart.
Engineering jobs are hot today, and people feel they are great jobs because new grads continue to find employment in positions that pay a good starting wage. My opinion is that over the next decade or two, many of those positions will move outside the US, as global competition increases for highly skilled labor. In Malaysia, and India, and Poland, and Lithuania, and Bulgaria and probably a dozen other countries, there are qualified college graduates who will work for $25k-$30k per year. That makes a $60k+ education in the US a poor investment. Foreign universities are improving every day.
So how does someone with an engineering degree accumulate skills to navigate the changing global dynamics of employment? I don’t believe large state schools provide the breadth required to thrive. That is absolutely a sweeping generalization, but so are most comments on boards like this.
As a Lafayette engineering grad I need to put in my two cents. Over 30 years ago I chose Lafayette over some more prestigious universities (JHU, Cornell) because I wanted that well rounded education without the cut throat atmosphere, whether perceived or real. With an engineering degree I could still pursue med school, law school, MBA if I so chose to. Instead I decided to seek employment and interviewed for many different types of jobs because I still was not sure I wanted to be an engineer. I was amazed at how many employers wanted to hire engineering majors for non-engineering jobs because they knew they could “think.” Now after working over 25 years in engineering and program management I can tell you it does not work the other way around. We do not hire non-engineers for engineering jobs, and would be very leery of hiring anyone with only one year of an engineering education, I don’t care which school it came from. If your kid is thinking about engineering he should go to a school that offers an engineering major. Some people are putting way too much weight on a school’s name. When hiring an engineer we are much more concerned about the engineering abilities and internship/job experience than where he went to school. This is true in today’s competitive job market more than ever. We want someone who can do the job and with appropriate people skills, they don’t need to be “intellectual.” There are plenty of prestigious “intellectual” schools that offer an engineering degree, it doesn’t need to be Haverford.
A drifting follow up …DS will be attending Haverford in the fall (unless the wait list at Caltech pans out) 
He spent 2 full days at Stevens, which offered him a Presidential Scholarship, and the vibe was, well, there really wasn’t a vibe. He sat in on a 2nd semester Mech. Engineering class which was much smaller than expected (which was a positive) The professor asked questions and nobody responded. None of the students spoke to him before or after class. DS was standing in the middle of the campus looking at the map and trying to figure out where the next class was, and nobody stopped and asked if he needed any help. I know that Stevens is a really good school, and a great place to study engineering and land a job upon graduation. It just lacked the community feel that is (apparently) very important to DS.
Haverford was a completely different experience, and he visited 3 times. At this point he plans on majoring in physics and fencing for the team. Brandeis was more impressive than I expected, and we felt alot of positive energy on the campus. They also offered merit money, have a better fencing team, and they’re much closer to home, DS knows that feeling homesick will go away, and he needs to chose a school based on the best academic and social fit.
Yes, I worry that this HUGE $$$$$ investment may not pay off in terms his future employment. But hard working kids will be most successful (define success as you will) at a school where they are connected and engaged.
@Epeemom, as you long as you can afford those “HUGE $$$$$,” I think it’s wonderful that you’re willing and able to allow your son to go to his first-choice school. Congratulations and best of luck to him!
@LucieTheLakie - thank you.