Haverford, University of Michigan - Political Science Comparison

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hey, I've just been accepted from the waitlist at Haverford and sent in my deposit to University of Michigan (and Wesleyan in Connecticut, but I don't think I'm going there). I'm looking at majoring in Political Science or Physics. I know both schools have excellent physics programs. Haverford in particular has a lab that specializes in fluid and granular flow, the kind of thing I'm interested in. Now, I'm just wondering about political science. I know U of M is very good, but how is Haverford? If i'm not sure about whether I want to do political science or physics, will I be okay at both subjects at both schools? I know they're both very different, but U of M is close to home and cheap, while Haverford is more of thje kind of school I wanted to go to. I have tons of friends at U of M, and one of my best at Haverford.</p>

<p>Basically, will I be safe at Haverford? If I want to go into politics and run for office, is it a good idea to go to the big university, or the small liberal arts college with connected people?</p>

2

<p>Its probably better to have a lot of connections in politics, so Umich is good for that (it has much more people).
Also Umich is much cheaper. Politicians tend not to make too much money, so you want to have the smallest amount of debt possible.
Also Umich has, according to US News and World Report, the 3rd best political science program in the country.
If you want to become a politician, you might want to get a law degree first, and Umich has a top 10 law school, and it accepts more applicants from Umich than from other colleges.
Umich has two nobel laureates for Physics, and a huge amount of alumni politicians. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Michigan_alumni#Law.2C_government.2C_and_public_policy%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Michigan_alumni#Law.2C_government.2C_and_public_policy&lt;/a> </p>

<p>I think that you should try Umich, and if you find that you dont like it there, and would prefer to go to Haverford, you can always transfer.</p>

3

<p>Go to Wesleyan</p>

4

<p>In terms of overall experience, influencial and loyal alumni netowrks, breadth and depth of academic offerings, particularly in Physics and Political Science, and financial cost, I would say go to Michigan.</p>

5

<p>I think I really would prefer the environment at Haverford. I don't want to just be another in-state kid. I want to explore outside of Michigan and get a new experience, in a new location. I dont need to know about Michigans poli schi program. I need to know about Haverfords, and whether its a safe bet.</p>

6

<p>Haverford really doesn't have much of a Political Science department. It has a faculty of 8 professors and a very limited course selection. However, if you really want to go to Haverford, if you know that it is a better fit for you, go for it. It is a top college and one cannot go wrong there.</p>

7

<p>well, i just found this.</p>

<p>Here are the top ten in percentage of undergrads who received a PhD in Political Science over the last ten years: </p>

<p>Swarthmore
Haverford
Reed
Princeton
U Chicago
St. Johns
Toogaloo
Oberlin
Coast Guard Academy
Amherst </p>

<p>which seems to indicate to me that haverfords program is decent at least. as long as its decent.</p>

8

<p>So the Coast Guard has a decent poli sci program too?? I'm not so sure about that admiral. Make sure you aren't reading into something so much that you're willing to draw incorrect conclusions.</p>

9

<p>You have great choices. Go to the school that you like the best.</p>

10

<p>Charles Canady, former member of congress, Florida Judge coined the term partial birth abortion.
Oscar Goodman, Defense Lawyer, Mayor of Las Vegas
Charles Mathias, Former Maryland Senator
Ko</p>

11

<p>Chibears is right. Only 15 Haverford students graduate with undergraduate degrees in Political Science annually. That not enough of a sample size to draw accurate readings. </p>

<p>Eskimo, all universities have produced successful civil servants. Here are just a few that attended Michigan:</p>

<ul>
<li>Kamal Ahmed al-Ganzuri, former prime minister of Egypt. </li>
<li>George Ariyoshi (LAW: JD), third Governor of Hawaii </li>
<li>James A. Baker - staff attorney for the Dept. of Justice </li>
<li>Nancy Kassebaum Baker, former U.S. senator from Kansas. </li>
<li>Robert J. Battista (LAW: JD 1964) - Chairman of the National Labor Relations Board Chairman. Battista was appointed by President Bush and confirmed by the Senate to serve as Chairman of Board for a term expiring December 16, 2007. The NLRB administers the nation's primary labor relations law, the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. </li>
<li>Marcel Benavides, Assistant Corporation Counsel for the City of Chicago, representing City of Chicago police officers </li>
<li>Alvin M. Bentley, B.A. 1940, M.A. 1963. Bentley was elected to the Eighty-third Congress, and to the three succeeding Congresses, serving from January 3, 1953 to January 3, 1961. In 1966, while pursuing a doctoral degree at Michigan, Governor George W. Romney appointed him to UM's board of regents. </li>
<li>Mary Frances Berry (LAW: JD/Ph.D.) - former chairwoman United States Civil Rights Commission. </li>
<li>Lester Bird, Prime Minister of Antigua and Barbuda from 1994 to 2004. </li>
<li>William J. Bogaard (LAW: JD 1965) - Mayor of Pasadena. </li>
<li>Howard L. Bost, 1955 Ph.D., historic architect of Medicare and job-related benefits for workers. Michigan awarded him the nation's first doctorate in medical economics. </li>
<li>Brigadier General Margaret A. Brewer, BA (1953), Director of Women Marines; first female United States Marine Corps general officer </li>
<li>Mark Malloch Brown, MA. In 2006, Secretary-General Kofi Annan announced the appointment of Mr. Brown, the current Chef de Cabinet(no.2 rank in the United Nations system), to the position of Deputy Secretary-General. Mr. Brown previously served as Chef de Cabinet to the UN Secretary-General, in 2005. He also served as the Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme, the UN's global development network, from July 1999 to August 2005. During that time he was the Chair of the United Nations Development Group, a committee consisting of the heads of all UN funds, programmes and departments working on development issues. Prior to his appointment with UNDP, Mr. Brown served at the World Bank as Vice-President for External Affairs and Vice-President for United Nations Affairs from 1996 to 1999. He joined the World Bank as Director of External Affairs in 1994. A British citizen, Mr. Malloch Brown received a First Class Honours Degree in History from Magdalene College , Cambridge University. </li>
<li>John Cherry (MPA 1984), Lt. Governor of the state of Michigan, and former state senator </li>
<li>Terry Davis (BUS: MBA 1962) - Member of Britain's Parliament for 28 years, now Secretary General of the Council of Europe and human rights activist.
William Rufus Day, US Secretary of State during the Mckinley administration , he later negotiated the Peace Treaty ending the Spanish-American War and was later appointed as an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court by President Theodore Roosevelt. </li>
<li>Thomas Dewey, 1932, politician and presidential candidate. </li>
<li>Lamberto Dini, Former Prime Minister of Italy.<br></li>
<li>Howard Flight, MBA and British MP. Holds 11 directorships. In September 2001, he was appointed Shadow Paymaster General and in July 2002 was promoted to Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury. </li>
<li>Gerald R. Ford, B. A. 1935, HLLD 1974, the 38th U.S. president, studied economics and political science. He played center on Michigan's football team and was the team's most valuable player in 1934. </li>
<li>Harold Ford Jr. (LAW: JD 1996) - Congressman representing Tennessee's 9th District. </li>
<li>Richard A. "Dick" Gephardt (LAW: JD 1965) - Former United States House Minority Leader. </li>
<li>William C. Handorf (BUS: MBA 1967) - Member, Board of Directors, Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond. </li>
<li>David Hermelin (BUS: BBA 1958) - Entrepreneur, philanthropist and former United States Ambassador to Norway. Ross School benefactor. </li>
<li>Pete Hoekstra (BUS: MBA 1977) - Six term United States Congressman. </li>
<li>George M. Humphrey, United States Secretary of the Treasury during the Eisenhower Administration. </li>
<li>Alex Joel, (LAW: JD) named , in 2006, as the first civil-liberties protection officer for the United States Office of the Director of National Intelligence. Spent four years as an officer in the Army's Judge Advocate General's Corps, working as both a prosecutor and a defense attorney. He later worked in the Central Intelligence Agency's general counsel's office. </li>
<li>Mark Kennedy (BUS: MBA 1983) - Two term United States Congressman. </li>
<li>Donald Kohn, Ph.D. 1971. Joined the Federal Reserve System in 1970; member of Board of Governors since 2002. </li>
<li>Timothy D. Leulitte (BUS: MBA 1976) - Chairman of The Board, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. </li>
<li>Estefania Aldaba-Lim Ph.d. the first female Filipino Cabinet secretary serving as social services and development secretary from 1971 to 1977. She was also the first Filipino clinical psychologist. She played prominent roles as the former assistant secretary general of the United Nations Children's Fund's International Year of the Child. Was President of the Girl Scouts of the Philippines. She also founded the Museo Pambata in Manila. In 1948 she set up the Institute of Human Relations at Philippine Women's University. Ms. Aldab-Lim became was the first woman to become special ambassador to the United Nations, with the rank of assistant secretary general during the International Year of the Child in 1979. She received the UN Peace Medal Award from then Secretary General Kurt Waldheim. </li>
<li>Oren E. Long, former governor and senator from Hawaii </li>
<li>Thomas J. Miller U.S. ambassador to Greece. He was also U.S. ambassador to Bosnia-Herzegovina. </li>
<li>Bill Mitchell (LAW: JD) - Former Kansas state legislator and was speaker of the Kansas House from 1960 to 1962. He served in the Kansas House from 1957 to 1962 and was chairman of the Kansas Corporation Commission, serving from 1963 to 1968. </li>
<li>Sterlings Morton, A.B. 1854, US Secretary of Agriculture under President Grover Cleveland and founder of the National Holiday known as Arbor Day. </li>
<li>Frank Murphy (LAW: JD 1914) - United States Attorney General under Franklin D. Roosevelt and Associate Justice of the Supreme Court. </li>
<li>David L. Norquist, A.B., M.A, was nominated (<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/01/20060117-4.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/01/20060117-4.html&lt;/a&gt;) January 17, 2006, by President George W. Bush to be Chief Financial Officer at the Department of Homeland Security. </li>
<li>Rob Portman (LAW: JD 1984) - formerly headed up the Office of the United States Trade Representative(USTR). Nominated by President Bush, in 2006, to head the United States Office of Management and Budget, or OMB. </li>
<li>Harvey S. Rosen A.B. 1970, served as Chair of President Bush's Council of Economic Advisers. Served as the deputy assistant secretary for tax analysis in the Department of the Treasury under President George H.W. Bush from 1989 to 1991. </li>
<li>Martha Seger (BUS: BBA 1954, MBA 1955, PhD 1971) - Former governor of the Federal Reserve Bank. </li>
<li>Ken Sikkema (BUS: MBA 1984), Senate Majority Leader for the State of Michigan. </li>
<li>George Sutherland (LAW: 1883) - Associate Justice of the Supreme Court. </li>
<li>Larry D. Tompson (LAW: 1974), Deputy United States Attorney </li>
<li>Arthur H. Vandenberg (LAW: JD) - Republican US Senator; was instrumental in creation of the United Nations in 1945. </li>
<li>Jack Vaughn, United States Peace Corps Director. </li>
<li>Ronald N. Weiser (BUS: BBA 1966) - Former US Ambassador to Slovak Republic. Founder of McKinley Associates. </li>
<li>Adonijah Welch, 1846, U.S. Senator from Florida and first president of Iowa State University. </li>
<li>G. Mennan "Soapy" Williams (LAW: JD) - Six-term Democratic Governor of Michigan (1948-1960) and later Michigan Supreme Court Chief Justice.</li>
</ul>

12

<p>Here's a better list.</p>

<p>Two points:</p>

<p>Yes, I would expect that all of the Military Academies produce a significant number of future Political Science and Government PhDs. Any PhD in military strategy, warfare, etc. would fall under that general heading.</p>

<p>It should be noted that a huge state university, such as Michigan, will almost never be near the very top in per capita PhD production. Among the 30,000 undergrads are nurses, veterinarians, farmers, etc. A small liberal arts college will generally have a student body that more consistently leans towards academic/research careers.</p>

<p>But, to be honest. None of that really matters when discussing two schools as far apart on the spectrum as UMich and Haverford. You have a fundamental choice to make about the size of the school and the style of education you are looking for. Nobody can make that decision for you. Both are truly excellent schools.</p>

<hr>

<p>Number of PhDs per 1000 graduates<br>
Academic field:Political Science and Government<br>
PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000 </p>

<p>1 Swarthmore College 10
2 Haverford College 8
3 Princeton University 8
4 Pomona College 7
5 Harvard University 7
6 University of Chicago 7
7 Oberlin College 7
8 Williams College 7
9 Reed College 7
10 Wesleyan University 6
11 Bryn Mawr College 6
12 University of the South 5
13 Whitman College 5
14 Amherst College 5
15 Yale University 5
16 College of Wooster 5
17 Stanford University 5
18 Georgetown University 5
19 Claremont McKenna College 5
20 Carleton College 5
21 Smith College 4
22 Middlebury College 4
23 Franklin and Marshall College 4
24 Tougaloo College 4
25 Wellesley College 4
26 Occidental College 4
27 Brown University 4
28 Lawrence University 4
29 Harvey Mudd College 4
30 United States Coast Guard Academy 4
31 Earlham College 4
32 Kenyon College 4
33 Knox College 4
34 Brandeis University 4</p>

13

<p>How about Georgetown? Not too big, tops if you want to go into politics.</p>

<p>Academically speaking, there is no reason to choose Haverford over Michigan. UofM has a far superior physics dept for starts and much greater breadth in terms of poli sci courses offered. Even in things like fluid mechanics and viscosity, which are part of their excellent engineering dept. Go through the general catalog of classes for both schools and see if course offereings is an issue.</p>

<p>PS: I want to hear you say "It's a trap!" :)</p>

14

<p>I would think Wesleyan is the best among those options.</p>

15

<p>Doesn't Michigan have a liberal arts like college with in the University, RC or something, Michigan seems like the better choice, great academics and a great alumni network</p>

16

<p>I know two professors who do research together who have been arguing this type of topic for a decade--one went to Smth for undergrad, the other to UC-Berkeley. Then they both got PhDs at Berkeley. The conclusion I've drawn from listening to their debate is that you will take about the same number of courses in your major at a big school and a small school. The real difference is that at a big school there is a much wider selection of courses, so you can zoom in on a certain specialty if you want, and take several courses focusing on that specialty, much the way grad students do. I don't see why anybody would want to do that at the undergrad level, but it's there at the big schools if you want it.</p>

17

<p>The reason someone might want to do that at the undergraduate level would be to follow their interests.</p>

<p>Say after sophomore year your interests have become more fine-tuned, and informed by coursework to date. You now know that you are interested in pursuing, e.g., Positive Political Theory, and applications of Game Theory to problems in Political Science.</p>

<p>These are topics you didn't even know existed when you started college. But now you realize that you are interested in these sub-areas, but your LAC- Haverford, or whatever- doesn't offer a single course in them. At a larger Politics department in a university, with more professors and more course offerings, there is a better chance that, by pure luck, they happen to offer the courses that you now find yourself interested in.</p>

<p>This is an actual advantage of some universities over some LACs that should be given some consideration. It can be real. IMO.</p>

18

<p>Exactly. That's a huge upside of those universities that are pushing the edge of the research enveloppe. </p>

<p>As well, bradth of curriculum is not just a matter of a narrow specialization, it also allows a student to pick the courses he's most interested in. At cal for example, you'd typically pick about 15 classes from over 50 offered in your major as an econ, history or poli sci major, and the options for non-major electives are limitless. Game Theory is a great example, you can take a class in Econ (with the profs who have developped the concept) or in maths.</p>

19

<p>1st off, the alumni comparison from the prior page is completely whack. I bet only a fraction of those Michigan people went to MI for undergrad and the majority went there for graduate school. Also, there are 17,000 Haverford Alumni vs the zillion at Michigan, so straight out number comparisons are just wrong. </p>

<p>I only looked at LACs myself, so I'm biased, but I don't know how anyone can say that you get a better education at a university than a LAC. There may be many more classes to choose from, but being taught in large seminars with 100+ kids-- the "education" is different. You may wind up with more "fact" knowledge upon graduation but certain skills like writing and analytical thinking are better taught at small colleges. There is much to be said about being taught by professors who know your name, in a class of 12 other students, where you have to interact, ask questions and formulate. Also, writing is a very important skill to have and, at a place like Haverford, professors routinely ask for 5-10 page analytic papers to be written on a weekly basis and provide feedback for improvement. For example, my friends who took organic chemistry, had to write 5 page research summaries on a weekly basis- all of which was evaluated by the professor. What class within the 1st 3 years at a big university can provide that type of tutorial-teaching?</p>

<p>With well developed reasoning, research and writing skills, any LAC graduate can easily pick up specialized/ advanced topic knowledge that may not have been directly taught in college. Also, if you look at the course catelog of Haverford, you will see that nearly all of the professors received their graduate training at the best programs for their field, so they know what's important (and not) for their undergrad students.</p>

20

<p>Rarely do classes over 100 go beyond the intro level classes even at good large state universities. Only the large intro classes have TA's doing the grading. After that it's the prof.<br>
The large variety of activities outside class help make up for the lower level of personal contact you might get at a large school. There will be far more clubs, activities like film fests, art shows, musical productions, and big-time sports add a dimension that can't be matched at small schools.</p>