I’m sorry but can we just please do away with the fallacious accusation that Bowdoin went test optional in order to game USNews Rankings? It went test optional in 1969.
^^ hear! Hear! Totally with you on that one, @pb2002.
Sorry. I actually didn’t mean to imply that Bowdoin was gaming the system, but on re-reading it certainly sounds like I said it. I do think that colleges testing scores is one area that is so wildly inconsistent that it really isn’t a credible way to compare and measure colleges. Colleges utilize spring entry (USC) or have test optional policies (George Washington, Bowdoin and others) which result in the under reporting of lower scores and therefore inflating overall scores. Whether they do so to ‘game’ rankings or for other reasons it unclear. Net effect, however, is score data collection is quite different from the schools that do not utilize these policies.
I actually think Bowoin is a fantastic school and was in my son’s final 4. Sorry I offended anyone.
No apology necessary; not offended. To put a finer point on it, Bowdoin’s reasons for going test optional in 1969 are commendable, but because they receive some sort of ranking boon (and it’s unclear just how much, since USNews methodology has become abstruse to a fault) by reporting only students who submit scores, they are often accused of gaming the rankings. Granted this might be partial motivation behind some schools’ more recent decisions to go test-optional, but there are more substantive motivations for going test-optional than a marginally higher ranking in USNews. (And, it should be noted, going test-optional is not always linked to a higher USNews ranking). Many colleges no longer pay mind to these rankings. Bowdoin itself officially makes no mention of them on their website or in their news feed and even its student newspaper has lost interest in the rankings as a news item; this was hardly the case a decade ago. I believe that standardized testing reveals wealth and access to preparatory services more than it reveals aptitude. There was good reason for Bowdoin to make standardized tests optional in 1969 just as there are good reasons today for a competitive school to go test optional that have nothing to do with USNews.
pb2002, I don’t disagree with most of your statements, however I think most colleges (perhaps not Bowdoin) are very mindful of rankings. If this were not true, we would not see colleges being caught intentionally misreporting data (Claremont McKenna, GW, Emory). Perhaps Bowdoin is not focused on rankings because Bowdoin has sat at a very comfortable and respected position for years. I don’t believe for a minute if that slips they would not pay mind. Colleges are, after all, businesses.
I am also not as certain as you are than going test optional results in ‘marginally’ higher rankings. Colleges typically see a significant increase in applications once they change to test optional. With more applicants, comes fewer acceptances resulting in selectivity appearing stronger (in addition to the stronger report of entrance test scores).
I agree that there are positive reasons (as you clearly stated) to go test optional. I’m just not convinced that most colleges are altruistic. Call me cynical, but if test optional policies resulted in a slide in admissions applications or rankings, I bet most schools would quickly reconsider the policy.
I’m a Bi-Co alum and get the Haverford alumni magazine, email announcements etc. There weren’t any significant events which would raise eyebrows or make a parent worry.
The bread and butter of the US News rankings is to switch them up to keep people reading. This year, there are 3 schools at #3, so the next ranking is 6; there are 2 schools at #6 so the next ranking is #8, there are 2 schools at #8 so the next ranking is #10, there are 2 schools at # 10 so the next ranking is #12, there are 6 schools at #12, so the next ranking is #18, Haverford and Grinnell. The notion that a formula might identify concrete, meaningful differences among schools of this caliber is what sells online subscriptions.
At the OP’s NYC private who aren’t impressed with Haverford – maybe kids who already go to high school in the city want more of a bucolic college experience, so the enclosed campus on Main Line Philadelphia feels too much like Westchester or CT suburbs? Haverford – with its Quaker traditions and the central role of the Honor Code – is not for everyone. And that’s ok.
Citivas, thanks for your detailed response. D is in a similar position to your kid stats wise is sounds like. She’s looking exclusively at small LAC and is fine with rural or suburban- as long as it has a really cohesive beautiful campus with a strong sense of place. A tight knit community is very important to her. She is fine with small, in fact her only hesitation about Middlebury (which in general she loved) is the size- it feels a bit big to her both in layout and number of students. She will probably ED1 Midd or Bowdoin and both are reaches. She is looking for an ED2 possibility and I thought Haverford might be a good option. The acceptance rate for her HS in the past few years has been good. At this point she seems to have agreed to visit, and I am glad because in many ways it seems like an extremely good fit. The only caveat is that she really wants a football team because she enjoys being a spectator at her HS and loves how it brings the community together, Haverford does not have that.
I went to a college in years of administrative turmoil and it really affected my experience so I also want to make sure she does not have a similar experience.
Proudpatriot, she is only looking at small northeastern LAC’s (also an outlier at her school) and it sounds perfect for her. I outlined the many reasons why in a reply to an earlier comment. I just don’t want some superficial teen snarky moment to take it out of the running in consideration. She needs more schools on her list, especially ones that are low reaches.
If Midd or Bowdoin are her first choices, why not just do whichever one of those she didn’t do for ED1 as her ED2? Haverford is about as hard to get into as either of those so it’s not like she’s swapping out for something materially easier to get into. All of those schools give a pretty significant advantage for ED. Haverdford is somewhat unique though in straight up admitting its an advantage. Wes does too. Most pretend like athletes and other hooks are the main reason for the statistical advantage despite all evidence to the contrary.
Citvas Her counselor has stated that since there are many applying to Midd and Bowdoin and few to Haverford that the odds would be better there. Absolutely still a reach but competing with less classmates. He feels it’s a great fit for her as well and his words meant far more than mine!
Ah, that makes sense. If there is specific knowledge of how many competitive people are applying from your daughter’s particular school that could be a factor…
Fwiw, while midd and Bowdoin have football, it’s not generally that well attended. Lots of kids play sports. Few attend them. Only to say that in this case, if she prioritised for football, she may be disappointed. Glad you have gotten her to look at least!
garden state gal- That’s super helpful to know. We never thought to ask, just assumed that if there’s a football team people attend. I mean, she knows is not like Alabama (where her dad is from) but kind of assumed that it would be a community attended event. Are there small LAC’s where attending football games is a unifying social event? She’s looking for a school spirit kind of thing. She absolutely loved a lot about Vassar but was worried that the way people got together for communal events was to “sit in a dark room together and watch a dance performance”. It’s the enthusiastic social gathering that she’s looking for…
At Bowdoin, Colby, and Union, ice hockey is very well attended and tons of fun. (There are others but those leap to mind.) Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate (possibly Bucknell) are LACS where football is more of a “thing”.
I am pretty sure most of these schools livestream sports, so you could look at the events online to see (or hear) the crowd.
I think your D’s enthusiasm would be welcome and she won’t be alone as a supporter, but game day culture isn’t big. At all these schools, even without sports, the sense of school pride is strong. (Just not revolving around sports.)
Let’s be clear about Colgate Athletics.
Colgate sponsors Division 1 Ice hockey for men and women within the ECAC Conference. You will find the Ivies, St Lawrence, Union, Clarkson, Quinnipiac and RPI there. too. The Class of 1965 Arena, opened last year, is just incredible, as you can see below, and is one of the best in the conference:
http://gocolgateraiders.com/sports/2016/10/7/class-of-1965-arena.aspx?id=880
Of course, Colgate is also known for its Division 1 football program within the Patriot League at the FCS level (former D 1AA) level. Like a couple of the other PL member teams, Colgate likes to compete against FBS (ie former D 1A) in the early part of the season so the players have that type of experience.
Both football and ice hockey are very popular with students and alumni The Athletics program contributes to Colgate’s unique identity and position as a top LAC.
Go 'gate!
^^ yes, and to clarify, my comment about spirit not coming from sports did not relate to the D1 schools (Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell ) but to the ones at the beginning of the thread, where football is not a “thing”. I see that my post may not have read that way, so for the OP, if a game day culture is a draw and there is a preference for LACs, those 4 D1 schools, all excellent schools, are worth a look.
Many schools will publish attendance for their games. Try looking at the “Box Score” section on a team’s page to get an idea of attendance.
Great article today in the NY Times about Colgate Athletics:
http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2017/10/6/general-nyt-praises-raider-efforts-vs-mrsa.aspx
Go ‘gate!
Look at the U.S. news criteria. Haverford gets knocked because of its location and safety!!! It is the safest nicest campus you will be on. Academically the median ACT score is a 34 and average GPA is a 4.1. No offense to the other schools but top LAC are Haverford, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Pomona, and Claremont McKenna no question. The others are great but do not attract the same caliber of students as these do.
More important than test scores or GPAs, in terms of quality of academics, is the quality of the faculty – they teach. We still haven’t figured out a reliable way to judge that. Until then, the academic rep score will have to do, I guess. (the class size metric helps too, I suppose, to help figure out academic quality…)
The caliber of students does have something to do with the level of work done and the quality of classroom discussion – there is some merit to it. I guess to me the faculty is just more important for selling the academic quality of the school. Students can break ties, maybe. haha
Bottom line, Haverford is a great school with top-notch faculty and smart students. I think USNews generally gets the order about right, the silliness of rankings notwithstanding. But every year they have a few schools ranked pretty clearly below or above their academic punching power. This year, Haverford and Wes are too low. And Reed is always too low – probably 60+ spots too low. That very clearly is ridiculous. Heck, make up some numbers for Reed that out them in at least the top 39, and save yourself some blushes, USNews. While you’re at it, put Haverford 9th and Wes 10th, or vice-versa.