Penn would not make a difference to me at all , but might to your family. Nobody here can answer that for you. It is your money.
Thank you for sharing more info @SuburbMom . Penn is one of the schools that claim they meet full need through grants (no loans). So something is not adding up and you may want to dig more deeply with the FA office as to why your EFC and their no-loan policy appear to contradict.
FWIW, this time last year my son had put in his ED app to Penn (his first choice and he also had 35 ACT). We were really hoping for an acceptance and I had started the paperwork on a HELOC on our house in case the FA came up short. He was rejected. So it goes.
Since you own your house outright (congrats!) have you considered a HELOC? Interest rates are low and interest payments are tax deductible.
(Happy ending for us…son is now at CMU, thriving, and with enough FA that we can afford it. I am in the camp that says it is worthwhile to send one’s child to the “best” school possible, even if a financial hardship. But I know this is easier said by some families and not possible for others.)
My best wishes for a happy outcome for your family.
I often recommend a book called “The Early Admissions Game” for this question. Written by two Harvard profs and a Wesleyan AD, it is a detailed, statistical analysis of ED, it’s advantages and disadvantages. A summary from an article by Louis Menand in The New Yorker says:
The chief finding reached by the authors of “The Early Admissions Game” is that applying early significantly increases the chances of acceptance. Their conclusions are based on data from the admissions offices at fourteen élite colleges and on a survey of three thousand high-school seniors.The average student in their sample who applied Early Action increased his or her chances of admission by 18.9 percentage points; an Early Decision application increased the chances of the average applicant in the sample by 34.8 points. The authors calculate that the advantage is the equivalent of a hundred additional points on the combined S.A.T. scores. An Early Decision application doubled the average applicant’s chances at Brown and nearly tripled them at Princeton.
OP. I feel for you during this process. It is such a huge decision to make with such fuzzy information that it naturally invites second guessing. But if your D feels this is the best place for her and you can get it done with some belt tightening, then I say go for it. She needs to be in a place she feels comfortable to thrive. If UPENN is the place, then that is where she should go. You might need to leverage the opportunity to attend, but it will be well worth it when she graduates.
Good luck and we hope she gets in. Keep us posted.
@intparent - I think for the FAFSA it calculates EFC based on the # of kids in college, not the cost of the college or whether the student got a big scholarship. I recall a poster several years ago whose younger child got a huge merit award at her school so paid very little for attendance at that school, but the COA at the older child’s school went down significantly just because there was a second child attending college.
Unhooked kids for Huntsman have a lottery pick chance of admission. It is a fabulous and popular program that is hyperselective. The few spots are split internationally and domestically. With the US spots spread between the states. Plus all spots spread between languages. It is partially through Wharton.
Kids not admitted still have a shot at Wharton, which again has a lot of legacy and special admits applying in ED.
Not sure if ED for an unhooked kid in this circumstance changes outcomes.
What’s meant by an “average student?” Average “perfect?” And the book dates back to 2004.
Many times, a family can come up with the additional money. To some, a $4500 parent loan x four years is do-able. But I think it’s a very personal decision.
I just hesitate when we talk "dream " schools.
The loans this family needs to take are to pay their FAMILY CONTRIBUTION. Need based aid from Penn will not cover their family contribution.
Thumper’s right. The family would take loans to meet what the college does feel they can pay. Not “packaging” loans doesn’t mean familes can easily meet the family portion without them. Or that the student doesn’t need loans to help with that.
What has changed to make its conclusions any different? The gross numbers of applications up, yes, but there is no data, newer contradictory study, or evidence I have seen that would refute its findings regarding the effect.
In fact, with larger percentages of classes being selected ED, and colleges that tried to drop it after this book came out returning to it, it is reasonable to assume it is exactly the same, and more likely to be greater than lesser.
Thanks @thumper1 - that’s it exactly. The school’s NPC shows we’d receive aid entirely in grant form, but there’s a gap between EFC and what we can afford. I actually think that’s fairly common from what I’ve read on these boards.
I’ll add my $0.02 on the ED vs RD and say that my tiny little bit of research shows that it is a big advantage for some schools. We went to an info session on Duke and they were open and told us it was 23 or 24% (don’t have my notes) acceptance for ED and 6% for RD. The AO was heavily promoting ED.
Yes @SuburbMom . ED often has a higher acceptance rate. A great opportunity for those who have decided the college is the top choice. If this is your child’s top choice, then you have done right by applying ED. You have told the school it is the top choice and you will attend if accepted. Best of luck.
@Consolation EXACTLY normal-- expectations are so high today it seems from during to immediately after college. I lived in an old one room dorm with a roommate and shared a community bathroom - no AC and often way too hot in the winter time because of old heating systems and never thought it was sub-par. I have to admit I don’t even get the whole ‘dream’ school concept-- its an education, a means to and end.
@ucbalumnus so what?? I was never ever led to believe that I should enjoy the same lifestyle as my well established parents straight out of school.
This sort of pattern is common at many elite schools – including Penn – but it begs the question of whether the ED and RD applicant pools differ. If the kids who apply ED tend to be more qualified, ED might not offer as great an advantage as it appears to.
On the other hand, if a young person is going to go into debt, the Huntsman program at Penn seems like an excellent reason to do so. I suspect that students who complete the program will be able to get jobs that will enable them to pay off their loans without undue hardship (provided that they also maintain a relatively frugal lifestyle).
So we’re talking average as in B+ or some flaw? I think not. Kids still get chosen or not based on how they match and their own presentation in tbe app. And don’t forget how Early includes athletes, etc.
But back to affordability. How is saying Huntsman is worth tough debt different than when we advise other kids not to go into hock for their “dream” schools?
Not ED situation, but some food for thought: My D had two favorite schools. School #1 had a “better name”, awesome location, and after merit, was right at the top of what we had decided we could afford (which was less than our EFC). School #2 was not as prestigious overall and in a slightly less desirable location, but she was accepted into a top-ranked program, at a cost $13,000+/year less. While we weren’t willing to promise her the difference for grad school or anything else (although depending how the future plays out, we may give her some of what we “saved”), we did discuss what the less expensive school would mean.
Primarily, it meant no loans for her or us and no reduction in retirement savings. I am one of those people who can’t sleep at night if I am worried about things like what if we need a new car (one is fairly new, but the other is 12 years old) or a new roof–much less something like a major medical issue or job loss. Having a substantial emergency fund is important to both H and me (and yes, we could have borrowed against our home or retirement accounts if absolutely necessary, but that would not be our preference). Also, we have a S 2 years behind her, and college costs rise every year, so were looking at six years of substantial payments.
Also, D didn’t have to work during the school year. As a sophomore, she does, but that was her choice for extra spending money (we cover tuition, fees, R&B, and she covers what I will loosely term entertainment and discretionary spending, like Sephora makeup). She worked during the summer, but did take a week off for a family vacation, plus additional days for fun with friends (concerts, beach trips, etc.) In short, she earned what she needed to pay for her fun, but did not have to work “extra” to contribute toward her college expenses.
In May, she went on a study abroad trip that cost about $4,000 (we paid), which meant 3 weeks that she wasn’t earning money. This won’t be an every year thing; but she will study abroad for a full semester next year, and we will likely visit her and travel nearby as we have the “wiggle room” in our budget to do so.
Then there are little things: She can fly home for breaks instead of taking a 15 hour ride on the Megabus. She lives in one of the pricier housing options on campus. We were able to go on a nice (but not lavish) summer vacation. We all flew out to a family wedding instead of driving 18 hours each way.
Only you and your H can decide if you can live “close to the edge” for 6 years. I don’t mean that to sound judgmental: some people are simply more risk-tolerant than others.
The data set was large and the study did not qualify any segments; the conclusions are based on the entire applicant pool. The book states the study accounted for athletes and other outliers and that is what is meant by “average applicant”.
@lookingforward , this is a well known, oft-quoted, serious study by real academicians who have lived their life in the college and admissions world and have no known agenda for pre-conclucion. Why would you doubt its veracity without evidence for that position?
Huntsman is a great program. Again- if this family has two healthy wage earners, adequate life insurance, a cash cushion for job loss/emergencies, health insurance paid for by the employer, etc. then taking on debt for the family contribution may be worth it. If these things are not present- then Huntsman is risky. It’s a great program, it’s not the only program which this kid would love.
And I would be gobsmacked to learn that ED represents a significant advantage in admissions unless the kid was a legacy. Penn is very candid- if you are a legacy and want the legacy “tip”- apply early. Otherwise, we don’t consider legacy in the regular round.
So the Penn ED admissions stats are murky because you’ve got legacies crowding the pool. Some of them are slam dunks during the regular round anyway- some are not- but a kid who is NOT a legacy at Penn, and is NOT a slam dunk admit is not going to see much in the way of an advantage by applying early.