<p>I'm glad to hear that, pencilpusher. I'm not involved in the politics of the mental health field, so I'm not up on the issues of bad blood between psychiatrists and psychologists. And I was always happy to leave the prescribing to the MDs. </p>
<p>Nice to hear that psychiatrists can be involved in direct psychotherapy practice. Most of the ones I know don't seem to be. I've always wondered whether they can't charge enough in our area to make a living, buy malpractice insurance and pay back astronomical school loans unless they divide their hours into 15 minutes med-check segments. I don't know if that's true, just speculation.</p>
<p>Slightly off topic, but I often hear about the perils of premed and Ochem. Now, once one get INTO med school... How difficult is it? Is there as high a dropout rate as in undergrad?</p>
<p>You probably know that it's a major annoyance in the psychology community that we are often termed "not real doctors". Of course we are not MDs , but Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't either, I think. Psychologists are (I think uniquely?) shamed into not using the Dr. title though we have earned doctorates.</p>
<p>I wish we could learn to share and work better together. We are all in the business (and/or art) of healing.</p>
<p>Seems like some people use the terms "psychiatrist" and "psychologist" as generic terms for people who study behavior and/or provide therapy. Srinaldi's son wants to be a psychiatrist, but their unfamiliarity suggests they might not know the differences between psychiatrists, psychologists, and therapists that don't have a doctorate of any type. Maybe you folks in the field could explain in detail the various educational paths in the mental health field that don't involve going to med school (Ph.D. in psych, master's in social work, various master's programs in counseling, etc.).</p>
<p>I started with a nursing degree with the idea of working on psych. units in hospitals (my Dad had died and I knew I needed a real job). It was great experience and I got a Masters degree and then a Ph.D. eventually. I considered MD, but tried an organic chem class and decided against it. Loved working with adolescents. Never made much money. When my son was small, I tried to go back to work and it didn't "work" for us. So I've mostly done volunteer work in my community since then.</p>
<p>I'm afraid I don't know much about the training/education required for other health fields other than for medical specialities. Child psychiatry requires a two year fellowship on top of the 4 years for general psych. Depending on how you do this you can sometimes get by with only one extra year for child psych. In that case you use your last year in general psych as your first year for child psych, for a total of 5 years of training, instead of six.</p>
<p>Re failing medical school. My experience is it is very hard to fail out of medical school. If you start doing badly the faculty really works to bring you up to speed. Despite the fact that it's really difficult, and when I went they really put you through the ringer psychologically, deep down, the school did not want you to fail. </p>
<p>There were a few people who left medical school in the middle of it. However, it seemed that these people left for personal reasons (one guy who wanted to be a MD on a commune left when they insisted he shower while in clinical rotations. He decided that was against his principles.) Another, sadly, left for medical reasons. </p>
<p>The really odd thing is that a rather large minority of my classmates are no longer practicing medicine. I'd say 15% - - which is huge I think. Many who are still in medicine are unhappy (we recently re-connected via the web.) Food for thought, though I think it's mainly because everone looks over their shoulder and thinks others have had an easier time in life. I actually like practicing my brand of medicine, though like everyone, I have my bad days.</p>
<p>Once you get into a doctoral program, they want you to succeed and will do anything to help. One of the 8 in my program seemed determined not to finish and I think he didn't. You'd have to work hard at failing when you get to that level. I worked hard to get good grades (where did I think I'd go from there?? but it's just how I always approached learning). I remember a fellow student who said passing grades were good enough; no one would ever know. I understood the rationale, but couldn't go there.</p>
<p>Perspective of a know-nothing here. On other threads re med school, I have read lengthy discussions of how some undergraduate institutions "inflate" their success rate of grads getting into med school. As I recall, they do this by refusing to "put forward"/sponsor the med school apps of some candidates.</p>
<p>As I said, I know nothing. But I wonder if the OP should hear something of that discussion, either wrt considering this factor in choosing an undergrad institution or de-bunking this issue as a myth.</p>
<p>Srinaldi, it might be helpful to tell us exactly why your son wants to be a psychiatrist. Wants to help people? Is fascinated by human behavior? Enjoys the sense of humanity gained by people unburdening themselves to him? Many seem attracted to the field because they are eager to understand themselves.</p>
<p>I always though it was interesting how people who like it when people unburden themselves with intimate details of their lives have such a wide variety of career options: psychologist, psychiatrist, social worker, clergy, cab driver, bartender, barber. This wide variety suggests that people are often looking for another human to "spill their guts" to, even if that person isn't a trained professional. I used to teach college philosophy, and it always amazed me how many students stayed after class and told me about their emotional troubles, even when I was teaching something dry like Introduction to Logic.</p>
<p>To the OP-
I did my undergrad at Vassar (double majored in psychology and biopsychology) and have my Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology/Neuropsychology. I feel I had a wonderful education. Vassar can prepare you well for med or grad school. I work with kids and adults and love the blend of diagnostic testing and therapy. As for the "turf war" to which pencilpusher alludes, I don't have the same experience-- I have a great working relationship with many MDs (psychiatrists, neurologists, rheumatologists,e tc). We respect each other's work. We all grumble severly about what the insurance industry has done to our professions, but we don't get into complaining about each other's practices. Sorry you feel you have to "put up" with your colleagues. Sheesh.</p>
<p>There are many paths into the mental health field, psychiatry being the most rigorous and time-consuming. The kinds of licenses vary from state to state. In addition to psychiatry and clinical psych, clinical social work, psychiatric nursing, marriage and family therapy and psychoanalysis are all paths that are licensed in many states. Many of the psychiatrists I know started out with the goal of becoming a physician and, having achieved that, realized that mental health was the field that most interested them; in retrospect, the path into clinical psych would have been shorter and cheaper. Here's some info: <a href="http://www.apa.org/topics/psychologycareer.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.apa.org/topics/psychologycareer.html</a> </p>
<p>The child psychiatrists around here, btw, are making $300/hour cash, because most of them are refusing to participate in managed care, and they are turning away patients. When it comes to talk therapy, it's no surprise that, given the cost of a psychiatrist, the insurance companies would prefer to reimburse for sessions with a social worker or psychoanalyst whose sessions cost $80-$150. </p>
<p>I would look very carefully at clinical psych as a possibility, keeping in mind that in order to do a grad degree in that field you need to fulfill the premed requirements as well as having some psych courses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are many paths into the mental health field, psychiatry being the most rigorous and time-consuming
[/quote]
Wrong. Four yrs of undergrad, 6 yrs of grad school, plus internship and a 2 yr postdoc is hardly any less "rigorous and time consuming" than getting an MD and specializing in psychiatry. Ph.D's also have to do research and write a dissertation (also got a masters degree along the way,which also required research and a written thesis). Oh, dont forget qualifying exams. All on top of regular coursework, practicum (clinical) experience, etc. This is a TON of work. Please don't minimize it.</p>
<p>My s has always been a good mediator. He has be practicing these skills since he was only in the 4th grade, something his school strongly believes in. He was an active member in Kids For Peace. His classes taught him to resolve conflicts peacefully. He never was the type to argue or fight with someone. Even with us, he looks for a peaceful resolution. He is very level headed and more mature than most his age. He always has been. He is in his junior year and is Agenda clerk. Something most students arent elected to until senior year. Agenda over sees the class representatives and handles many issue that the students and school have to deal with. He is the one his friends come to because he truly listens. He will help them with a problem or correct their essays because the value his input. He loves school and always has been very successful at it. He loves working with kids. He wants a well rounded education, to include english, maths and sciences. He loves them all. His school wanted to nominate him for Governor School for his leadership skills but he his strong commitment to the local YMCA( and the kids) wont leave him any time to be part of it. I know his direction in life may change but I want him to follow his dream of becoming a Psychiatrist . Thanks for all the info. He thinks a LAC is a good fit if Cornell and Princeton dont work out.</p>
<p>Jym, I have the utmost respect for psychologists and certainly did not intend to minimize their (your?) training. Perhaps I should have spoken more pointedly. Imo the internship and residency M.D.s do are basically inhumane and I would encourage anyone to avoid them, if they can train professionally in another way for more or less the same career. I don't believe -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that clinical psych Ph.D.s are forced into this kind of round-the-clock sleeplessness. And to me, that's a good thing.</p>
<p>aparent-
Hard to compare the time committment of the two training programs, especially since psych internships/postdocs vary inthe type of training setting they are in.It may be in a medical center (like mine was) which asmany of the similar rigors to med school, or it may be in a community mental health center or university health center.those are different settings with different levels of intensity. The MDs call schedule may be unreasonable, but (1) they make a lot more $ than psychology interns so may not neet to supplement income and (2) they don't typically have to go home and write long reports/diagnostic evaluations on their patients on top of writing other research papers. Both fields have pretty arduous paths.</p>
<p>couple thoughts
one friend of Ds- took a semester off to work at a long term facility, to confirm that she wanted to go into pysch ( was more interested in treatment rather than medical management)
is now in a Phd program with a pysch she was particulary interested in
Did very well getting an undergrad pysch degree ( @Reed)
Another aquaintance is a prof at the university of wa- does neuropsych research & is an MD/Ph.d
Says his undergrad at Reed(bio), was more difficult than med school.( from that I expect he means that the undergrad prepared him so well- that med school was less difficult- not that the level of work in undergrad was higher.... I hope)</p>
<p>In terms of therapy- from a lay person view- I would consider getting an MSW- best therapists I have met. ( by far)
Psychs whether a MA or Phd are next
pyschiatrists are worst for therapy- they mainly do medication management in our area- including child pyschs- however there are also few of them ( child pyschs)
If you wanted to do the interesting research IMO, you would need an MD- to take clients- you could just get an MA in pysch or social work</p>
<p>The larger schools definitely weed out- also, the courses are not necessarily as demanding as you would like.
Not a contradiction really- the grading curve could be very sharp, but according to profs in undergrad at UW, some of the required 400 level classes have 200 students and all multiple choice tests, no papers required</p>
<p>Good thoughts, EK. And if the OP's son is a born mediator, he might also consider licensure in Marriage and Family Therapy. Main point: there are many different and highly competent mental health practitioners. Choose the path that suits your temperament, preferences, and life situation.</p>
<p>Medical school sucks...I'm just glad I never have to go through the first year again and will probably feel the same about this year too...but the ends seem like they'll justify the means (although stories like pencilpushers are worrisome at times).</p>
<p>But it's hard to fail out, for several reasons. One it's such a task to even get through the pre-med part. There's a high attrition rate which is part due to difficulty and part (and in my opinion the greater influence) due to so many kids not having an idea of the great number of career possibilities. They are unsure but know that doctors make a comfortable salary and everyone's been to the doctor so they have an idea of what doctors do.</p>
<p>Secondly, admissions is so intense and difficult (only about 45% of applicants last year received an acceptance to any medical school). So it's hard to get in...</p>
<p>But once you're in, like pencilpusher said, the faculty and the school will help you and they want you to graduate. My school and other schools I have friends at (so I imagine most if not all) allows you to remediate failed courses and even entire years of school. My class (now second years) had about 5 retake the first year. I've heard that part of this willingness to graduate students and give multiple attempts is because there is so much money invested in training future physicians. Part of that is because of the cost in healthcare in general, part the necessary equipment and facilities and part because the third and fourth years of medical school are essentially apprenticeships and that's an expensive way to teach large groups of students...</p>