Help, daughter, graduated Princeton 09, now wants to be a doctor

Parents Forum
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<p>Mini, I know lots of unemployed and underemployed nurses in my city. (A huge hospital closed and two teaching hospitals merged.) It is tough to be in your 50’s, a community college educated nurse with 25 years of experience, to be taking random “on call” shifts at a local nursing home with no benefits or job security. </p>

<p>I don’t think becoming a doctor is a way to get rich. But I also don’t know any unemployed physicians. Even the “mommy track” doctors I know, who work limited hours or only a couple of days a week, seem to have a high quality of life, love their work and their patients, and manage to pay off their debt.</p>

<p>But agree 100% to do it for love. And anyone who has money on hand looking for investment ideas… don’t get your financial advice from an anonymous job board.</p>

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<p>Applying to med school is expensive. I was in the audience for a panel discussion about UCLA. One of the panelists had gone to UCLA undergrad and was now at UCLA med school.</p>

<p>He said to budget $10,000 to apply to med school. $100 application fees per school-apply to 30 schools. You have to fly out for interviews (if you’re lucky enough to get one)–so factor in hotels and rent a car. </p>

<p>I had no idea that the landscape was so competitive…</p>

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<p>“Mini, I know lots of unemployed and underemployed nurses in my city. (A huge hospital closed and two teaching hospitals merged.) It is tough to be in your 50’s, a community college educated nurse with 25 years of experience, to be taking random “on call” shifts at a local nursing home with no benefits or job security.”</p>

<p>My wife, three years out of AA nursing program, (and in her 50s) makes well more than I do, and we are so short of nurses that hospitals are paying bounties to get folks to move here. So send them our way, we really need them! (And, under health reform, nurses will be taking on a lot of the tasks previously performed by doctors, and will be doing all the triage of the newly insured.)</p>

<p>And, if they had done what I suggested, after 25 years before being unemployed, they’d STILL be financially well ahead of the average full-pay Princeton-educated doctor. And I don’t know ANY nurses with $300,000 in debts to pay off (plus the costs of setting up a practice) at age 35.</p>

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<p>Mini, are there openings in Olympia for new nurses that graduated from a cc in California? Or do you need experience?</p>

<p>Alumother, congratulations to your daughter for her career choice.</p>

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<p>Soon to be six. UC Riverside is set to enroll its first medical school class in 2012.</p>

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<p>OP: I am sure you will find all the information you need from other posts here and from other sources. </p>

<p>The only thing I will say is that I know a LOT of doctors who did not dream of going to medical school when they were in college. A LOT of very successful doctors.</p>

<p>I know one person who graduated from Princeton (with not great grades), spent about 2-3 years working in a research lab and taking the required courses, took the MCATs, got into a decent medical school, and went on to do surgery. So yeah, it has been done before. Many times.</p>

<p>There are more pre-meds who never end up in med school than there are non-pre-meds who do end up in medical school.</p>

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<p>

I’ll be waiting on your call. :wink: Cool. Old home week on CC.</p>

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<p>Hi all.</p>

<p>So many life paths put kids in this position these days since a liberal arts degree qualifies them for underemployment or no employment.</p>

<p>I particularly appreciate momrath’s post about no regrets for the liberal arts education the kids have received.</p>

<p>My D is following a similar path, but her goal was law school. Since there are so many unemployed lawyers these days, I was thrilled she decided on the public route. Her tuition is $10,000 a year, which will reduce her debt load considerably.</p>

<p>She is also an '09 from Barnard. She did get almost a full ride from a private, a tier one, but not a T14 and declined it for the public because she wants to do public interest law which she is being prepared for.</p>

<p>A few more words about post-baccs and such. I really like Bryn Mawr’s. One advantage is has is that there is a match program whereby you can choose one school and and apply directly without MCAT’s. This saves a year in the application process. One of the potential designees is Stony Brook, which like all NYS schools, is very reasonable, even for out-of-staters.</p>

<p>DD is at CUNY law, which is considerably less expensive than their state law schools for many. Same holds true for Stony Brook med school.</p>

<p>I agree with mini in his financial analysis and nurse practitioners are doing particularly well. Their incomes exceed the PA’s by far.</p>

<p>A word from the trenches: best friend’s son-in-law did this entire journey. After graduating from Cornell went to med school at Yale. In his mid-thirties he is extremely disillusioned. According to him he is earning “only” $225K as a vascular surgeon and feels the level of sacrifice excessive for this “paltry” salary.</p>

<p>Of course, I don’t necessarily feel the same.</p>

<p>As someone said, this is a course to undertake if this is what you want to do, not as a get-rich-quick scheme.</p>

<p>Alumother: Good luck to your red-haired girl.</p>

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<p>The greater Seattle area is a wonderful place for a newly graduated student to start a career. We have lots of young people and in general employers don’t expect the same amount of experience as elsewhere. Plus, it’s a fun place for a young professional to live.</p>

<p>I don’t know anything about nursing in general but would highly recommend the Puget Sound. Only downside is cost of housing.</p>

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<p>The pre med course work can be taken piecemeal here and there if there are a few missing courses as has been suggested, but if there are more than a few courses missing, the post bac programs offer more than just course work. I know some recent attendees of post bac programs, and the advising is good, and some offer very good connections for getting admitted to “affiliated” (more or less) med schools. I am familiar with several here in the east, and if you want to know about those, send me a pm. Financial aid could possibly be available for the post bac.</p>

<p>If you were to look at admissions statistics for entering age for med school, many students are out of undergrad for a few years. </p>

<p>The question that is there for your daughter is not really can she do it, from her background, it sounds like she certainly can, but will it really be for her. I suggest that she get to know some doctors in the field, and young residents so that she can get an idea of what the career would be like</p>

<p>I am married to a physician, and I work in the medical field, and personally and professionally and through our alumni connections we try to keep in touch with the environment for applicants, current students and recent grads. I know of one very talented person who had to drop out of a neurosurgery residency due to the time and emotional commitment. This is not like many other fields, even other surgical fields. This means early mornings, late nights, and naturally, a steady diet of emergencies. To me it seems like that choice of career means that work will need to come before family much of the time, and that is not to be understated. Also to consider is how long it takes to even be ready to practice. Other fields can be more compatible with part time work, or full time work with time for a family. Medicine is more of a commitment than for example law or finance (with which I am very familiar.) You can’t cancel an emergency neurosurgery for great aunt sophie’s funeral or little suzie’s dance recital. The family doesn’t always understand why they come second. </p>

<p>Medicine will not be the lucrative field that it once was. Open any newspaper and read about the escalating costs of healthcare and know with certainty that reduction in costs will come out of the pay for doctors. I will skip the political polemic, but know that about salaries to avoid a shock later. Today neurosurgeons can earn millions of dollars a year, but will they when medicine becomes a totally corporate/government enterprise? It also seems that it is really an irony that today’s med students who may pay several hundred thousand dollars for an education, the most ever paid, will face a decline in salaries. I am not sure that the salaries have hit the decline yet, but in 8 or 10 years when today’s students are looking for jobs, it will be a different landscape.</p>

<p>I don’t think any of this is a reason not to go to med school, but I think it is wise to consider, as is choice of specialization. For HYP type students who are young and used to being on top and achieving everything that they dream, I do think it is wise to realize that while you may be able to have it all, you can not have it all at all the same time. Thank God that there are brilliant young people who are willing to commit their time and energy to being neurosurgeons. The rest of the world benefits much more than they do. Who can put a price on having your life saved after being in a car accident or other head trauma?</p>

<p>Best of luck to your daughter.</p>

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<p>Babyontheway, thanks. If you really have a baby on the way, congratulations and good luck.</p>

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<p>Hey,Alu. I have nothing very useful to contribute to this discussion, but I just wanted to say hi to one of my favorite old-time posters, and my very best to your daughter!</p>

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<p>Being a neurosurgeon will pay off med school in no more than 5 years.</p>

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<p>Alumother, I am not in the least surprised at the decision. I half expected this, actually.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>Med school admissions is extraordinarily keen. Knew several friends including one with a 3.75 GPA from UC Berkeley and MCATs in the mid-high 30s who needed to apply multiple times before being admitted by any med school. It is also sobering when I kept hearing from every pre-med student that if they received any grade below an -A…especially in a pre-med core course, their pre-med advisor would tell them to forget about applying to med school because it was so competitive…and that was back in the '90s. </p></li>
<li><p>Medical doctors…even those in internal medicine work long hours which make those kept by lawyers and i-bankers look like a cakewalk. Saw this when I lived with 3 medical interns/residents as a roommate for 5 years. Sometimes i would not see them for 3 straight weeks because they have already started their evening shifts before I arrive home in the evening from work and are fast asleep/haven’t arrived back home when I leave to go off to my 9-5 job in the morning.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I’ve been treated withing the past 8 years by two Ivy educated doctors who began their careers in other areas, and decided to leave those jobs and go to medical school. I also know of a third one who is in the process of doing that. (two Cornell grads, one Princeton). </p>

<p>Whatever the economics, it didn’t seem to deter any of these fellows (all men).</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much for the information, and for remembering me:). Hello to everyone and good to hear about your children, now in their early 20s. What a wonderful cohort we had/have. Such intelligence and good will.</p>

<p>So, what do I take away from all your comments?</p>

<p>My daughter’s not drawn to this for money. She is the type who likes a high adrenaline life, she likes to lead teams, she loves the surgeries she’s seen. Her neuroscience research was on computational memory, so not traditionally lab-based, but she even took an fMRI course as part of her departmentals. She finds the brain fascinating, and she is also moved by the emotional urgency of the work. </p>

<p>In terms of whether this is work she would like over time, you all are dead on. She needs to spend some time with doctors, as we know none. She needs to think about the time demands, because she loves children. I figure she also needs to take up needlework and see if she likes small motor work as much as she thinks she will:). But the ballet background has given her discipline, strength, and coordination, which I think would be helpful.</p>

<p>In terms of the cost, if it’s actually possible to do this all with loans, well then, it’s her decision to make. </p>

<p>So the last part is determining how much/what sorts of schooling she still needs to do. That she is looking into herself. When she has done the initial investigations, I am sure I will be back to see what you think of her various options.</p>

<p>Most of all, I do firmly believe that people should do as much as they can in their 20’s to figure out the work they want to be doing when they turn 35 and really hit their stride. Work that makes you happy and fulfilled is so important, and once you go down a path of financial support it can be harder to make a turn in the middle of the kid years. </p>

<p>The conundrum of women, child-bearing, and child-rearing is not easy to solve for anyone. I keep waiting for society to create more options, but of course, easier said than done.</p>

<p>Thank you again everyone. I’m listening.</p>

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<p>If she was a neuroscience major, I’d be surprised if she has very many courses she has to take and the post-bac programs may be more than she needs. She should definitely take the MCAT. In general I think med school admissions look favorably on students that have spent a little time out in the real world. Some specialties make more $$ than others - surgeons are on the well paid end, but she of course may not stick with that idea. Oh and she might enjoy reading Perri Klass’s book about her med school experiences. *A Not Entirely Benign Procedure: Four Years As A Medical Student<a href=“She%20managed%20to%20have%20a%20baby%20while%20in%20med%20school.”>/I</a></p>

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<p>Alumother - Just wanted to say hi and congrats to your daughter on her job. My daughter did complete her pre-reqs for med school as well as her MCAT (score is good for 3 years) and decided to take two years to experience life in the work force.
Everyone takes a different path; my understanding is that many med schools look highly upon those who “grow up” a bit after undergrad and make a well-founded decision about their medical school path. Best of luck to your daughter!</p>

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<p>It is so much easier for women now than in my day- the pages I could write of discrimination… The ERA amendment may never have passed but the times have changed since the 1970’s- women’s lib struggles paid off. I retired early (another long story) but now I see women general surgeons with kids and they limited work hours in residencies a while back. </p>

<p>At least two decades ago I read two books with revealing titles- “Medicine Is a Harsh Mistress” and “Married To Their Careers”. Both obviously dated but truth in the titles, despite the sexism of one.</p>

<p>Again, your D has plenty of time once in medical school to refine her goals. She may retain the passion for neurosurgery or change her focus. Even if she ultimately does not become a physician now is the time to go for it- she will not have regrets about not pursuing her dreams. This thread has brought to the surface many memories- things I would share from my experiences on a short rotation on neurosurgery (I did not enjoy being the surgeon- did anesthesiology for my adrenaline rush).</p>