There was a previous comment implying that since the student would be a legacy applicant at Penn and Cornell, the parents should know about all this tremendous academic pressure in high school, since they themselves had gone to Ivies. Those of us parents who did go to Ivies way back when, know that today it is SO much harder to get into Ivies.
It’s a very different world from our high school days. None of us can expect that our kids get into Ivies just because we did, even if they work ten times harder than we do.
A college with stats-only admission or an open admission community college may not even notice the transcript notation.
But a holistic admissions super-selective college will have plenty of 4.0 applicants with no defects on their records, so it is easy for them to reject any applicant with a defect on his/her record.
However, even less selective colleges that have subjective evaluation for admissions will be wary of any record suggesting academic dishonesty, since it calls the trustworthiness of the academic record into question.
You have all been so helpful. It’s complicated, she has a twin sister in her school who is top at everything. We don’t live in a location where starting public late is an option.
Excellent chance the top colleges know this high school. The GC and principal will support her in their letters, per OP’s conversation.
A lot of doom and gloom in some posts. No need to suggest only rack and stack colleges will be interested. Premature. And not how it works.
And please remember disciplinary issues don’t usually appear on transcripts. Yes, this school said they’d report it on the CA But also that they’d write to explain. Top adcoms will read that. If she’s a compelling candidate, great. OP and her D can research to learn what those colleges do consider a great match, so the final list fits.
If OP wants to encourage her D toward less competitive colleges, that’s different.
But imo, it’s ironic posters sympathize, but are blowing OP’s mind with certainty this ruins her D’s life.
She wasnt arrested for a crime, doesn’t seem to be a trouble maker.
@lookingforward Thank you so much. You have a very realistic view, yes every top college knows her school, it’s an iconic place when any discussion of academic excellence and pressure cooker is brought up. From what I understand, not many other students in her class will have a “black mark” on their Common App but I have to believe she will land somewhere. Even the bottom 5% of the class end up in T20 colleges each year and there are no athletic recruits. I again what to acknowledge that she did break a major rule and there should be a consequence. It is unlikely that she would get into an Ivy where she is not legacy and honestly I don’t think she should go to one. I think she needs to work on what got her into this position, ideally in a less stressful environment. If at some pint she wants to transfer, it will be her choice and process.
Couldn’t read all this thread, but that’s ridiculous. I don’t think that’s plagarism at all – I mean, she still cited the source, even if it was in the wrong “category” – and the whole deal is way, way, way beyond anything I’ve ever heard about in my (admittedly limited) experience. Even my friends at the “tough private schools” in my city aren’t writing 30-page research papers. Why didn’t the teacher check the citations ahead of time, in a rough draft?
Kids at my school literally craft entire assignments from Wikipedia quotes, and if it’s not an English class, teachers usually do nothing (although it makes the other students angry, obviously). I don’t think any of my teachers more than skim our citations. And if it helps, there’s a girl at my school who got into GWU (not an Ivy, but relatively selective) with one suspension for cheating on a test and another for drug use. So your daughter can definitely still go to college.
Honestly, it seems like your daughter’s school is the kind that’s a feeder for top schools – she probably gets more of a “second look” by default than regular applicants, so they’ll see the letters by the GC and everything. Apply everywhere she was already planning; what do you have to lose besides the application fee?
Definitely don’t repeat a grade. I would consider changing schools, but don’t send her away to boarding school. She didn’t do anything wrong; she doesn’t need to be punished by repeating a year or hide in shame at a faraway BS. Especially with a twin, assuming they’re close.
So many hugs to your daughter. I don’t know if my post offers much advice, but I hope it helps to have a reality check from the “real world” outside the hyper-competitive, hyper-stressful, hyper-elite environment your daughter is in: it will be okay, the school is being unreasonable, and your daugher is already probably smarter than 99.9% of high schoolers out there. This isn’t fair. So sorry.
Plagiarism or academic dishonesty are sort of catch-all labels. It doesn’t matter if anyone thinks a citation error is small potatoes or not the first definition of plagiarism. Many schools do include citation errors. That’s what OP us dealing with.
There are also rules re: quoting secondary sources when they refer to a primary source. Ridiculously complicated, imo.
Maybe part of her devastation is that your family is willing to let her be tossed under the bus for a mistake to keep the twin (and other kids?) in their perfect environment wave-free. I feel terrible that honest mistakes can’t just be something to learn from in high school. I’m sorry but I’ve got to ask- if the environment is so wrong for this particular child, why wasn’t she put somewhere healthier long ago?
At least ask for a peer review panel of the alleged plagiarism. If this is Sidwell Friends or Quaker school there are paths to have this reviewed. However don’t go with guns blazing. Go with calm focus and resolve. Perhaps they will drop it with a warning if you push back a bit and there’s nothing more to the story. Or any other previous warnings in this class.
Not to question your honesty at all, but perhaps it was cited in such a way with what was seen to be a purposeful act, the intent to pull one over the teacher because of the length of the paper and her fatigue, but they see it as an intentional act.
However, since it was still original thought and her writing, it would not fall under a traditional plagiarism accusation and they used a lesser charge to equate the conduct under the honor code.
Just be prepared to answer this type of response and have a reasoned explanation.
Yea @milgymfam
I’m hoping that OP has limited information/ is misinformed. Otherwise the parents are super-passive, and modeling this to the kid. After reading all 8 pages I still do not understand what the student did that would exclude her from acceptance at “top tier” universities. Sigh. ?
I would be concerned actually. Not to be shut out of course, she will have many great options in the end.
However, in a world with application pools that include the equivalent of two full classes of qualified students, the level of separation between a yes and a WL is paper thin.
Many spots come down to very fine levels of difference. In a tie breaker situation or committee vote it may cost her at the table.
I would definitely look into it seriously.
Also @hanna may be able to offer more direct advice regarding formal or legal challenges to this decision.
Am I misunderstanding this sentence? It seems to imply it was deliberate, rather than a mistake. Unless you mean how easy it is to make mistakes when someone is totally stressed out and getting 3 hours sleep a night. In which case I’d certainly agree that a less stressful environment is better. Just like colleges, students fit different schools as well. We’ve taken our younger sibling out of a school the older sibling did really well at, because it wasn’t the right school for her. The environment is presumably working for your top-achieving twin, but apparently not for this one.
She has a TWIN sister? At the same school? As the mother of B-G twins, I totally get how competitive this can be, especially if it’s a small school and the kids are in the same advanced classes (like mine were). At times, it was NOT fun. Are the girls close? Will she and her twin be applying to many of the same colleges? This makes a bizarre situation even stranger.
OP, You will need to think hard about switching schools after things have kind of "cooled down ’ for both of you. Not sure if it will seem like your DD is taking an easy path to get away from a tough situation to adcoms. Please know that you will get through this tough patch with time.
@milgymfam Very good question. DD has been in the school since K, she has done pretty well for most of that time. DH and I asked if she wanted to look at other day or boarding schools for 9th grade, she had no interest. She has areas where she is very successful in this school. Many students who are in the bottom 10% end of at an Ivy (about 90% of the class is Ivy legacy).
@4Gulls Yes, G, G twins, same small school since K. She really can’t switch schools for senior year. Her sister is a stronger student, but this twin has slightly higher scores. They are close but want to attend separate colleges.
@SJ2727 The school knows this was not deliberate but feels by 11th grade students should know how to cite properly. This paper was assigned with enough time to write. that said the academics in the school are so intense that she had papers and tests in all six of her classes. Teachers will not look at drafts in 11th grade, most of these students write at a grad school level. Plus many have outside tutors, my twins do not.
I highly doubt that. They (or their parents) may think they do, and there may be a few exceptions, but “most?” Nah. But most certainly do write beyond the “typical” 11th grade level.
I do think that students at this school know how to write at at least a college freshman level, however, by 11th grade and with that comes the expectation to cite correctly. As I posted before, colleges do consider poor scholarly form a plagiarism issue, intentional or not. The school has likely taught them the proper protocol for citing for a few years now.
One reason students from this school place well in college (among others) is because they are well prepared. Another reason is because colleges trust the integrity of the high school and some of that trust stems from knowing that any instances of known conduct are reported. But again, colleges will see the context of the disciplinary action and put it into context. It is minor in the scheme of things and will be treated as such.