<p>Still...for someone who needs money and lives in a state with an excellent state university, I do not understand the insistence on applying to all these out of state schools that happen to offer a lot of merit. I have to wonder if it's just so the student (and his parents) can mention the LAC and the merit award. I mean, I know absolutely nothing about UT or A+M, but really have to wonder--are they really less desirable than Univ of Arkansas? I don't know. Maybe the individual programs are. I suspect that what drives much of this way of thinking is that parents (and kids?) don't want to have to say they are attending their state university. And I think that's a skewed way of approaching this whole application process.</p>
<p>Whoo! I didn't mean to ignite a firestorm!</p>
<p>There is nothing at all wrong with the child going to UMich. In fact, that may well be his best compromise. I did not realize what state he was in when I first posted - I know about Quiltg, but not Mezzomom. UMich might be the school the brother attends for all I know.</p>
<p>Any merit aid school may be a tough sell to Dad, if he can go to state uni free - that was part of my original point. Merit aid can bring cost of attendance down to what a state uni tuition would be, but perhaps not down to $0, which if he was in my state, would be what he would receive.</p>
<p>Having said that, I can think of several reasons why he would not want to go to UMich, none of which have anything to do with the very high quality of the school -
He might live close enough to commute - families concerned about money are not going to pay for R&B, when son can live at home, particularly if Dad is understandably lonely, andfacing a difficult transition.
As I said, I come from a similar background, old divided family property, to this day I am the only member of my very extended family that does not live within 30 miles of where they were born, most within 5 miles. Believe me, UMich or Mich State, might be a little intimidating. My dear, loving, understanding parents, allowed me to turn down 2 free rides - one to big state uni, other to medium commuter school - to pay for me to go to small state uni, which was nowhere near as a good a school as the others. Granted as a state school, the tuition was not much, even for my very middle class parents, but I know it had to be hard. I had had a terrible experience summer before senior year, adn they recognized my need to get away, but the fact that I was too fragile for big state U.
I admit I am projecting my experience on this young man, but I can sympathize with the possibility that UMich might be just a little too much. I include other aspects of fit in this as well.</p>
<p>Also, Jack, in my kids' case, in our state, the situation is such that state uni turns into years 13-16 of XXschool. We don't have the size of UT or Umich to allow a kid to disappear into a new identity. If my son chooses Uof A, he will probably end up in a frat with at least 3-4 of his classmates. There is even a frat that is known as the "Our City" frat, because of its popularity with kids from our town. There is very little dorm life, most people are married and commute, live in apartments or live in frats. That is worrisome with a less mature kid.</p>
<p>Finally, I think something can be learned by going farther away to school - it is not the right choice for everyone, it is not a feasible choice for many - but there is value in that experience.</p>
<p>Hi guys, OP here. I was going to comment last night, but I thought it might be like walking across a tennis court in mid-volley ;)! Just thought I'd take a moment during a break in the action to make a few observations/comments, in no particular order:</p>
<p>At no time was I attempting to denigrate our state colleges, although I will say that in our neck of the woods, U-Ms national reputation is always a bit of a news flash. To many, and to the GCs at the hometown high school in particular, it is just the big, expensive State U. Kids are consistently steered to the other state Us "because they're cheaper." Having said that, I do think this boy will apply to U-M; I reiterated to him the importance of getting his app in early to take advantage of the rolling admissions.</p>
<p>The point of this kid looking for OOS schools is to have options. He's not scalp-hunting; he just wants to be able to compare and choose. His dad has told him that he can apply anywhere, but his final college choice will be based primarily on whichever is cheapest. This may mean he stays in Michigan, but he wants to be able to explore all of his options, not just State U 1, State U 2, or State U 3. </p>
<p>One of my biggest concerns for him is that his only familiarity with a college campus is the concrete, commuter campus where his brother goes to school...and the local CC. I'm going to be talking with his dad today to ask if I can take his son on all of our college visits this summer; at this point, I think it is important for him to get a sense of a variety of types of schools. Granted, summer visits aren't the greatest way to accomplish this, but it's better than nothing. And "nothing" would be his only other option; his dad either can't or won't (not sure which) take time off work for college visits. If I approach it from the "making college visits more fun and enjoyable for my daughter" perspective, he may agree to let his son go with us.</p>
<p>Finally, I think sometimes it's easy to breathe the rarified CC air and start thinking it's the norm. Perhaps that's where some of the State U vs LAC conflict comes from. But I also think that many kids have a fairly clear sense of their learning style, and it's not unreasonable to have a clear preference for either a LAC or state U, based on an understanding of the role of class size in (their own) learning and how important it is to interact with the teacher/prof. It's not right vs wrong; it's just very individual.</p>
<p>Speaking only for myself, I DO have a problem with humongous state uni's, as such Arkansas' size is preferable. 300 million from the Walton's infused into the school, with 100 mill for enhancing the honors program will make the deal at Arkansas even better. But you know what? D didn't like it. At all. Thought it was still too big. It's all about the fit, and if you don't concern yourself with fit then I think you are asking for major trouble down the road. Some kids would not consider a small school of a thousand students, I have no problem with that. Why do you have such a blind hatred for small LACs? Seems to me you are hung up on name recognition . Well, I don't concern myself with issues like that. The graduate and professional schools know the quality of student small LACs produce and that is the only name recognition that is important. What the football fan thinks means little to me.</p>
<p>Jack...just a note. DS goes to a very expensive private university. It cost him almost the same amount to go there his freshman year as it would have to go to his in state flagship U (because of the merit aid package he received for music). Our state U gives merit aid largely for academics...and only to the brightest who apply. Their aid for others is quite limited (except for athletes...don't get me going on that one). On our college search for DD we have found that the flagship U's in some other states actually cost about the same for out of state as our flagship U does for in state. Smaller LACs (No...not Amherst and Williams...but there are tons of others that are still excellent but not as "prestigious") have the potential to give excellent merit aid and if that is the type of school the student is looking for. Look at all the options...all of them...and get a menu of schools to consider. Yes...different strokes for different folks...</p>
<p>cangel and mezzomom: I understand completely the need to go out of state for school, small school vs large, etc. I think specific programs within certain schools should be looked at carefully, too. My daughter only applied to schools that she would, in fact, be willing and happy to attend--regardless of whether it was a school that offered merit or not. Some were far away; 2 were 25 miles down the road; and the sizes varied-- from our large state university to Ivys to a small New England girl's school. But all were schools that offered some-- or all-- of what interested her, and she would have been perfectly happy and thrived at any of them. So I am well aware of the value of individual school choice. And, of course, I agree- "it's not unreasonable to have a clear preference for either a LAC or state U..." That's a given.</p>
<p>Once again, my issue is that there are times when circumstances (i.e., money and/or family issues, etc), might warrant going to the state university, taking a year off, or whatever a more affordable alternative may be. But acceptance to one of this country's top state universities should not constitute failure or a sense of "settling" for any student. And I get the sense that this is always, always the subtext on CC ("rarified air" indeed). This is a skewed view to my mind. This particular kid, it sounded like, is going to have financial issues. Obviously, he should have choices and apply to schools that interest him, go as far away as he can, and perhaps he will receive merit or financial aid, or both. If not, he may have to "settle" for the Univ of Michigan; hopefully, his "adaptable learning style" will then serve him well.</p>
<p>thumper: Yes, I'm aware of cases like what you mention. And I absolutely agree-- students should have tons of options and certainly apply to all schools that interest them. No issue there.</p>
<p>
Man isn't that the truth. Jack , I have similar issues with posters who somehow assume that every kid should "prefer" a top twenty LAC or top twenty uni to one ranked lower, it appears simply because someone ranked it better or "best".""Best" for whom? If I have a reason for existence on this site (other than laughing at all the funny stuff and hijinks) it's to search out all the other unknown but fine schools in America, and bring them to the attention of my D and her friends (and any interested fellow posters). Again, I think our goals are similar.</p>
<p>You are right Jack - going to state univ is not settling, it may be exactly the right choice. I thought that was what I was saying, but expressing as well as I could. For some kids going to community college is a victory, and a perfectly sensible choice. Not only am I the only person who moved away, I'm also the only person in my extended family who didn't start at a junior college and transfer after 2 years, I'm the only one who had any kind of residential college experience. Believe me, they would think all this hoopla over college and what state and what size is stupid. College is about getting credits as cheaply as possilbe, getting out and getting a job - learning is not the point, useful majors, that is what is important. the majority of college going students and families, I think, are in their camp.</p>
<p>curmudgeon: Yes, we may very well have similar goals. I do think that there are any number of excellent small schools out there--no doubt. My own daughter applied to at least one. However, I think you have to be careful that you're not simply looking at them because they are small, private, far away from home, and happen to give out tons of merit money. I know some very bright kids who do that, but many of those schools (not all) were serious safeties for these particular students. The one small private school my daughter applied to, and received merit money from, was certainly a definite safety for her--so much so, that she only submitted the first part of the application. She ultimately decided that she wouldn't be happy there; even so, they wrote her, waived the 2nd part of the application (and the fee), accepted her, and gave her a merit scholarship. Academically, these kids are often way beyond the students these schools usually recruit. I have to give these schools credit, though--they do the right thing and offer money to the over-qualified student, but make sure your kid will be challenged. I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but I think to simply look at schools that offer great merit is, perhaps, not the way to go. My daughter did end up receiving a wonderful merit scholarship, but it was to a school that she would have been eager to attend, regardless. The school itself offered her everything she was looking for in a school, both academially, socially, in location, etc. And she loved her visits there. The scholarship certainly made it that much sweeter, of course. </p>
<p>cangel: Well, my way of thinking is very different; I think college should be about learning, among other things. And I think there should be some hoopla about college. I just can't feel sorry for a kid who wants to go far away, but may not be able to do so because of financial or other reasons, but just happens to live in a state with a great state university--big, yes--but if there's any beauty to a large research university, it's that one can choose to be anonymous--or not. I don't know. I just read that original post, and my heart really did not go out to this kid. I think it's great that he'll get a chance, perhaps, to go on a bunch of college visits through the generosity of the OP, but his future certainly doesn't sound bleak to me.</p>
<p>Mezzomom, back to your original question! I feel for your D's friend, I know more kids and parents in this mind set than I care to.</p>
<p>I understand that he wants to try to see OOS schools but has he considered other schools in Michigan other than UM. You think that a kid in MI would know about LACs in MI but trust me, it's not the case. Albion and Kalamazoo are schools that he could consider, good schools where he could get significant merit aid.</p>
<p>I think that he would receive aid from UM, something not to discount. I know someone with similar stats who has a tuition only scholarship, after Freshman year she is receiving more money, money is there for in-state kids. I have no idea where these GC are, I swear they have UM envy, why in their right minds would they not recommend UM. </p>
<p>Does he have any idea what he would like to major in. If he looking a pre-med, U of Cincinnati has a 7 year BS/MD program. Very hard to get into, must be in top 5% of class, I'm not guaranteeing it, but he would have a very good chance of a full-ride inc. OOS fees. Union College in New York has a similar program. I have no idea of the merit aid possibilities but a friends D went there and is really happy. With this program she has had many opportunities that other BS/MD programs don't provide, such as summers off and a semester abroad. She is now at U of Buffalo med school.</p>
<p>My D has a friend because of money problems is accepting a full ride to Pitt over Notre Dame. Miami of Ohio is another fine school with merit opportunities.</p>
<p>If he is thinking about engineering, I think that dollar for dollar Michigan Tech does as good a job educating engineers as any in the country, save the MIT's and Cal Tech (and a very few others). My S and I visited Rose-Hulman and it was very nice. Small and nuturing. They claim to offer 3/4 scholarships but they also have co-op and internship opportunities for all who want them, which could off set the cost of attending.</p>
<p>I know that these are tier two and three schools but they maybe worth considering, esp. as I think that full ride opportunties would be plentiful.</p>
<p>
Well, mine did, probably because my kid has similar stats. Significant merit aid is at least as selective and tricky as Ivy admissions and to ignore that reality is dangerous. Drop down a tier, no matter how good you think your stats are, if you HAVE TO have significant, like full-tuition , merit aid. And full-rides at top 100 LAC's? Rare as hen's teeth. I have 100's of hours researching merit deals at these schools. There just aren't very many full-rides. Many schools cap at half tuition or thereabouts.The higher the ranking the fewer and less generous the deals, is the general rule. We don't need a whole bunch of dissapointed kids next year who believe that merit for any unremarkable 2180 (and the OP's friend may very well be remarkable) is laying all over the ground, just waiting for them to bend over and pick it up.</p>
<p>curmudgeon: You are correct, and I absolutely agree with all you are saying. The reason my old cold hard heart did not go out to this kid, was simply because I think he has some fine options in his own home state. He will not be left without an excellent and affordable school to attend. Granted, it may not be the small private out of state LAC with full merit he prefers, but he will be and do okay. I'm afraid the same can't be said for some kids who definitely have it a whole lot worse...</p>
<p>Although these small LACs may not offer entirely free rides, I am amazed at $$$ they do offer. My D got a letter from the 3rd tier LAC both my husband and I graduated from offering her $25K/year for all 4 years if she agreed to attend...and this was in February of her junior year. We didn't even show her the letter because we don't want her to feel pressured to go there.</p>