<p>My daughter is spending the day with a boy who was her closest friend through elementary and middle school. She opted to go away to a charter school, and he has stayed at the hometown high school. When I brought him to our house this morning, the talk naturally turned to colleges (probably prompted by the piles of college mailings strewn throughout our kitchen!), and I was saddened to discover that he's getting the usual advice from the hometown HS GC...which is to point the kids to two state U's (not even including U-M) and the local community college.</p>
<p>He needs better guidance! He's a 4.0 student, taking the toughest curriculum (including 1/2 days at the local math/science academy), with SAT scores of 2180 and ACT composite of 34. He took three SATIIs (Spanish 740, Lit 720, and one of the math ones 800). His ECs are limited, because his mom died when he was in 7th grade and his dad wants him home most nights. He has been a class officer and involved with student government, and he is the student liason between the school district and a local education foundation. Right now he's interested in studying economics but isn't really certain.</p>
<p>He's hoping to come up with some out-of-state options (although he may opt to stay in-state in the long run because being too far away from his dad may be difficult.) On his country road, every neighbor is a family member...the old family farm was split up over the years and virtually no one has moved away. He told me his worst nightmare is that he'll never leave and experience life beyond our hometown. Merit aid is going to be important; his older brother is in college about 45 minutes away (but he does live on campus) on a full-ride, and the dad (who never went to college) is likely to have some issues (financial and otherwise) with paying big money to go out of state.</p>
<p>My daughter and I are probably going to go to the Case Open House in August, and I told this boy that he could go along if he wants. He's looked at Case in the past, and it holds some appeal for him. He also mentioned Northwestern, even though he's aware that merit aid won't happen. Anyone with other ideas?</p>
<p>Is he from an underrepresented state? Certainly sounds like an underrepresented background. He would get a very generous scholarship from Rhodes College in Memphis, or a number of like schools, probably enough to bring cost of attendance close to what he would have to pay in-state. The problem will be that he can probably go instate free, or near free. DD's stats were very similar, and she got basically a free tuition ride to big state Univ, and that was with an afterthought application - had she applied early, and truly pursued it she probably would have gotten money to help with R&B, etc. A classmate with lower stats gotten tuition plus a laptop, for example.</p>
<p>Another thing to point out to him - I grew up exactly this way (well, thank heaven, with both parents alive), and what it is hard to understand is that if you get far enough away (about 3 hours) that coming home and going straight back is a pain under any ordinary circumstances, then it doesn't matter as much if you are 3 hours or 10 hours or 2 plane rides, you will still see something of life outside your little corner. Will it be as broadening as going halfway across the country? No, but it also won't be as overwhelming either.</p>
<p>Another thought, a second tier state uni in a neighboring state might be a good alternative too - the kind of school that is listed in USNews as "Masters' Level", some of those in our area would salivate at the prospect of a student of his caliber, and would award big bucks, even out of state.</p>
<p>Let me guess. He goes to Whitmore Lake HS where the val goes to EMU and the Sal to Washtenaw Community College and the rest skip college to "go into the work force". Sigh. Our local HS is famous for this.</p>
<p>This boy has stats for many places. You didn't say what his interests are: Math? Engineering? Science? Languages? What size school? LAC, big like UM? How far away from his dad is he comfortable being? He would most likely get into UM, probably the honor's program which is a great program and nothing to poo poo. Many of the Ohio LAC's give merit aid including Kenyon, Dennison, Wooster, etc. CWRU is a great place. Carnegie Mellon if he likes engineering. Is he computer literate? Put him on the Counselor-O-Matic from the Princeton Review site to give him a flavor of possible schools, then match up with US News site to determine merit aid, etc.</p>
<p>Best of luck and many kudos to you for trying to help this kid.</p>
<p>Quiltguru: LOL! You're only off by about 100 miles, CMU instead of EMU, and Macomb Community College instead of Washtenaw. And GCs who actively steer kids away from U-M because "it's too expensive; you can go to Central or Oakland for far cheaper...and if you go to Oakland, you 'get' to live at home!"</p>
<p>Part of what I discovered this morning was that the only college campuses he's ever been to are the CC and the school where his brother goes (which has a large commuter population). So he doesn't have a good sense of what he wants, and his learning style seems pretty adaptable so I don't see any clear-cut choice between LAC and larger uni. I may just see if his dad will let us drag him along on all of our college visits this summer, just so he can begin to get a sense of piques his interest.</p>
<p>I think the family dynamic is going to be the biggest issue for him to work through. After his mom died, he fell into the role of taking care of his dad, and while they both seem ready to grow beyond that, it's sometimes hard to break old habits. I think U-M is a wonderful suggestion, which I'll pass on, since it would be an altogether different world, and the possibility of the honors program would shrink the school down to size a bit.</p>
<p>Jmmom: Need based aid will probably happen, but I'm not sure to what extent. The biggest reason I brought up merit aid is because there are schools which use a number-driven formula. If the son can point out his eligibility to his dad, it might overcome possible objections before they arise. I don't think the dad would ever out-and-out stop his son from applying someplace, but I think they would both have a higher comfort level if it looks like eligibility for a scholarship is a realistic possibility. In other words, if the son can show that going away is not going to cost that much more than staying close, it might make going away more palatable to the dad...and easier for the son to justify.</p>
<p>mezzomom, as far as LAC's in the midddle of the country look at DePauw, Hanover , Lake Forest, Wittenberg,University of Evansville, Drake, Illinois Wesleyan, Ohio Wesleyan,Illinois College, Hiram, lots and lots of really good small schools giving $$$ in the midwest. I'd probably stay away from thinking too much about the Kenyon class schools. Drop down to the USNWR 40's-100 or so if merit is a consideration. We're looking for the same school for a kid with similar stats.If he'll head south we can load him up with plenty more to look at, and still have plenty more in the Midwest.</p>
<p>mezzomom: While I admire your concern for this boy and your generosity and willingness to help him, I note that you are from Michigan. (Is that correct? Forgive me if I'm incorrect here.) I have to wonder what's wrong with the University of Michigan. I realize you would like for him to see other schools and see all that is available to him, but seems to me an acceptance to University of Michigan (if that is, indeed, where he lives) would not constitute failure. Presumably, he would be able to afford it and also be close to home. And perhaps at this point in his life, that might not be such a bad thing. If he is not from Michigan and happens to be from a state with a "bad" state university, could it really be much worse than some of those LACs listed in the posts above?</p>
<p>I have to say here that, though I find CC an informative and helpful site, I am consistently dismayed by the attitudes of parents who feel that to go to a state university is somehow a fate worse than death--and so far worse than going to, say, a place like Rhodes in Memphis--as someone posted above. Not that I have anything against Rhodes, but for heaven's sake, can someone please tell me what's wrong with his state university? I realize he would love to go out of state, but well, you know..people in hell want ice water, too. I really don't mean to be cold-hearted here, but sometimes the state university and what it offers really is better than some of these smaller than small LAC's that happen to offer tons of merit aid. </p>
<p>He sounds bright and has done well. If he's looking for out of state and merit, then can you take him to some better schools (than those listed above) that also offer merit? I just find parents so enamored with LACs on these boards, and I really don't understand it. Do kids really just completely fall apart at a big school? Are they really that fragile? If his learning style is adaptable, as you say, he shouldn't have a problem with a large university. He also sounds bright enough to, perhaps, be eligible for merit aid at his state university, and certainly honors. Just because a place is private and small and gives out lots of money certainly doesn't mean it's better. Often, it's tons worse.</p>
<p>And by the way, his worst nightmare (never leaving the hometown) is every kid's worst nightmare--everywhere.</p>
Trust me on this Jack, Rhodes is a fine school and cangel knows what she is talking about from personal and recent experience with merit aid at Rhodes and what is required. The more merit money he needs the lower the stats need to be at the schools he's applying to, that's a fact of life. The OP's friend stands a fair chance at the big bucks at Rhodes. That's it. A fair chance. If he absolutely has to have bigger bucks I'd suggest dropping to schools where he is likely to get a fulltuition award. In my opinion it would be very foolish for someone needing significant merit aid to concentrate on schools significantly higher than those listed on this thread. </p>
<p>As a real fan of schools you denigrate, I purposely support the LAC's mentioned and every one of them I have visited, which is most, are preferable for many students than a large state U. Tulane and the U of Miami are decent bets for him also , but Vandy and Wake might not be FOR SIGNIFICANT MERIT AID. Why don't you do a little research on Rhodes and you'll find that the 75 percentile SAT is 1370, I believe with a 690 verbal which is higher than U Mich BTW. Also 74% of the kids are OOS , a stat that appeals to many. If the OP wants merit for her friend, Rhodes and schools like Rhodes are the place to be. By the way, I'd pick Rhodes over any school with the environment of The University of Michigan, or UT, or Cal. And I'm sure you'd pick Cental Michigan over Rhodes. Fine. Go for it.</p>
<p>curmudgeon: Thanks for your post. As I said, I have nothing against Rhodes (and I do know all about Rhodes and what it offers), nor am I denigrating Rhodes or other schools. I am saying that while many of those small LAC's listed above may offer good merit aid, I'm not just sure they would offer anything more for this kid than (1) getting him out of state and (2) possibly giving him more merit than he could get at his state university. Now they may give him more merit, but the cost may well end up being more than his state university. Honestly, I think if he wants to go out of state and get merit, I think they're are probably equally fine schools for this kid where he probably could get merit. Someone posted a link that mentions other schools on one of the above posts. Rhodes is a fine school, especially for those who want/need an extremely small school that also happens to give out tons of merit aid. Based on the description the OP gives of this student, I'm not sure why he would be ineligible for financial aid.</p>
<p>At any rate, my main point was-- and is-- that I am consistently dismayed at the attitudes of parents on this board who "denigrate" state universities--as you just did--and are are totally enamored with LAC's. Can you not see the merits of both for different types of kids? I know some kids do well at and need extremely small schools, while others would absolutely suffocate attending a college with less than 1,000 students. But to each his own.</p>
Now , cite where I denigrated state u's.The truth is jack, a number of state u's don't give a lot of merit to out of staters, some do. I'd suggest Clemson, for one. Alabama for another.University of South Carolina Honors. ASU Honors. U of Arkansas Honors gives fantastic merit..</p>
<p>quiltguru: I'm sorry; I missed your early post mentioning Univ of Michigan. Thank you! Yes, seems like a logical choice to me, most especially for one who needs money, lives in that particular state, and has an "adaptable learning style."</p>
<p>curmudgeon: I believe that my "denigration" of small LAC's mentioned above was probably on a par with yours of state universities: (Your quote below.) And I don't know anything about Central Michigan. Sorry. I do love Memphis, though. On that basis alone, I'd go with Rhodes. Anyway, here's your quote:</p>
<p>"By the way, I'd pick Rhodes over any school with the environment of The University of Michigan, or UT, or Cal. And I'm sure you'd pick Cental Michigan over Rhodes. Fine. Go for it."</p>
<p>That was a statement of what I personally would pick, your's was a statement of better and worse. I made no such qualitative distinction. A substantial difference. You assumed I didn't like state U's. au contraire. I love some state U's, the small ones. W and M. TCNJ. Truman State, Mary Washington. St. Mary's of Maryland, the Honor's College at Ole Miss.</p>
<p>What distresses me Jack is when folks get on here and tell posters to aim for the top 20 merit schools out there. It ain't helping and it ain't likely to happen. It's a numbers game. Most of those kids will have an empty Easter basket next spring, and they ain't going to blame the bunny. Fill your basket up with some sure bets first and when acceptance day rolls around, you'll have a school you love and can pay for, too. Then after your sure bets are in the basket take a lottery flyer on a Duke full-ride, if you have an extra fifty bucks eating a whole in your pocket. Build the list from the bottom up, folks. Find your safeties before you visit your first financial reach. Don't let your kid get sold on a bike you can't buy. Just my two cents. I could be wrong. (Jack, I edited this one ,too.)</p>
<p>curmudgeon: You edited that last post, adding some state universities later. Glad to see it. Actually, there are also others that give out good merit aid to out of staters. Obviously, substantial merit aid anywhere is going to be difficult--for anyone--except maybe at Tulane, where they seem to have an endless supply of merit money. But I think some additional schools are listed on that link someone provided above.</p>
<p>curmudgeon: I agree that students should have safeties. Absolutely. My point really is that for someone who is bright, wants to experience a bigger world, yet who also needs money--and who is lucky enough (and correct me if I'm wrong here) to be living in a state with an excellent state university--I don't know--it just seems silly not to encourage him to go there. I'm sure the original poster will do that, but I really have to question the insistence that he apply for all this merit money to all these LACs, just because they are out of state and offer it? I never said one shouldn't apply to safeties and safeties that will offer merit, but I have seen too many posts on these boards that put down fine state universities in favor of these small LAC's, and I can't figure out why. Not every kid needs or wants a school like that. And some state universities really are fine institutions that offer amazing programs and research opportunities that a small college with no graduate program can ever hope to do. And, honestly, some out of state small LACs that offer good merit may end up offering $20K per year worth of merit. Sounds good, yet that might still leave the student with $15K+ per year to pay. Merit is one thing, but a full ride merit scholarship is quite another.</p>
We are in total agreement on that. Go back and click on that link about good merit aid and look at the schools listed UNC, Duke, Chicago, Cal Tech- people have strange thoughts about merit aid. They read , you need a 1450, top 10% to apply and they think-wow! I got that in the bag! They never bother to look and see that there are 3 total full-ride awards and last year they went to kids with 1500+ who were nationally known in their fields. That's why for those of us with fears of empty easter baskets, merit choices like Hanover College and U of Arkansas look so good . After guaranteed scholarships, both are quite competitive with our state schools (UT and A+M) for years 2-3-4. I personally will encourage 4 or 5 lottery shots,too.</p>