Help for a friend's son

Parent Cafe
1

<p>A son of family friend who just graduated high school is planning to enroll in the local community college. He's a smart kid but has some motivation problems in addition to being ADHD (diagnosed in early childhood). He graduated with around a 2.1, and it was a real nail-bitter up to the day. He was truant a ton, failed several classes for lack of effort, etc., though he tested into freshman level courses at the CC, so it's not lack of ability. Last year, he developed a passion for theatre, had small parts in couple of plays, and seemed to be actually enthused about something in school for the first time in years. He now wants to be a high school teacher (which is somewhat ironic, given how much he seemed to resist school) and double major in English/Theatre. The CC seems to have pretty poor advising, and his mom is insistant that it will be a problem that the CC doesn't offer a theatre "major," though it does offer theatre classes. I thought most CC students planning to go for bachelor's degree didn't really "major" in anything but just fulfilled GE and basic major requirements, right? </p>

<p>I'm glad this kid has finally found a passion (in fact, he's taking an intensive summer theatre course for credit to see if he truly wants to major in theatre), but I'm worried that without a lot of guidance and academic support, which the CC doesn't seem willing/able to provide, he'll fall back into his old high school ways (lack of attendance/effort, a partying streak, just not carrying about school), and his family isn't the type that can afford "wasted" tuition (mom has a BA in very narrow, somewhat low-paying field). What tips do you have that might help this boy stay on track and achieve his goals?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

2

<p>Hopefully he's in a 2+2 program, which means he can transfer to a 4 year school to finish his degree. I know our community college offers a very strong education degree, and the students virtually all transfer into a SUNY school to finish up.</p>

<p>I suspect the advising at his community college might be better than you think, but just like "regular" colleges, he has to seek it out. Encourage him to do so. He might by-pass the advising office and head right to the dean's office. If anything, community colleges are usually even closer to the students than 4-year colleges and universities. At least ours is; to an individual, the teachers and deans there are totally student-focused and readily accessible.</p>

3

<p>Can you tell us what state he is in? </p>

<p>I am active on the Transfer Board here and the kids active on that board are quite knowledgeable about how to take full advantage of the cc-to-4-year-college route. </p>

<p>It may be that the advising is better than the mom thinks. Even if not, he can get great advising by getting to know a couple of his theatre profs. That will probably be the very most valuable thing for him, as they will also serve as recommenders when it is time for him to apply for transfer to a 4-year school.</p>

4

<p>Actually, as an advisor at community college (actually we are all required to do advising) our advisement is better than at a lot of schools. I teach at Nassau CC and I can tell you tha</p>

5

<p>oops!
that many kids have transferred from local colleges for our theater and music departments. They are both outstanding. With 20,000 + students and most classes capped at 25 there are many offerings and many sections. The "major" is Arts abd Sciences as opposed to Criminal Justice, Mortuary Science, Hospitality, Business and Fashion and Merchandising (the more vocational "majors".</p>

<p>Community College is set up to nurture exactly the students OP described, and we take this seriously. It's not a sink-or-swim philosophy at all. The only fly-in-the-ointment is that CC's have rigorous distribution requirements, but this is what gives AA transferability and helps facilitate acceptances. I have had students attend Harvard, Yale, Wellesley, and UC Berkeley among others. NYU actually canvasses for students and offers major "merit" money.</p>

6

<p>As another CC prof, I can reaffirm that advising is a strength of these institutions. At my college, entering students are advised in the master advsing center for the first semester and then assigned to major advisors for subsequent semesters. The key is in accurately identifying the transfer major. Another key to success is for the student to establish a bond with faculty. As mentioned above, CC faculty are very nurturing if students show any substantial level of interest. Although the student will be pursuing some gen ed classes, I would say it is imperative (given his track record) that he become involved in the theater dept. immediately to feed his enthusiasm and improve his likelihood of success.
My best tip would be for him to establish contact with the student success program (or whatever it is called at his CC) at the beginning of the semester. All the CCs in my system have grants that fund tutoring and student success programs and the most successful students are often those that get into these programs right from the start instead of at mid-term when it may be too late to save a bad start in a class. In fact, many of the student tutors at my college were initially clients - one was a statewide winner in the USA Today Academic All American competition a few years ago who has gone on to complete an engineering degree after a career displacement.</p>

7

<p>u teach at nassau?? thats my local CC! its a good CC..i know a lot of people who attend it...I have ADHD and have problems but i like school...i excell in math and history and biology(other sciences + English im ok in) but my Math 9th + 8th grade was one word=bad!! he wouldve done well in Curry..it wouldve been a match for him and there ADHD program is top notch</p>

8

<p>The tips that I have are for the mom. </p>

<p>I strongly suggest that she require her son to work fulltime during the summer, and use his earnings to help fund his education. I also urge her to have him cover part of his costs by taking out a loan.</p>

<p>It is amazing how hard working students can be if they are using their own money to help pay for college.</p>

<p>I have ADD, my older S has ADHD, and my younger son is ADD. All of us are very bright. I graduated from an Ivy and have a doctorate. My first year, I was on academic probation at my Ivy, and had to make up one course that I failed. I paid for having to take an extra course -- last time I flunked a course.</p>

<p>Older S went to college on virtually full merit aid (Had high scores, strong ECs, mediocre grades -- 2.9 unweighted) that I helped him get by leaning on him to get his college and scholarship applications in. He started partying in college and never quit. At the end of freshman year, he had an average of below 1.0. He's now 23 and hasn't returned to college.</p>

<p>I learned my lesson with younger S and did not structure his time so he got his college apps in senior year. As was the case with his brother, his grades also drastically declined senior year in h.s. We didn't even know if he was graduating until a week before graduation. My husband and I had warned this S in advance that if his grades drastically declined, we would not pay for his first year of college nor would we pay for college apps.</p>

<p>So, S did a gap year as an Americorps volunteer (a position he himself found. Our house rule is unless you are in school fulltime, if you live at home, you pay rent and have a fulltime job). He paid rent, and managed to apply to college. He got into his first choice, a LAC that gave him some merit aid, but that he also will be taking out an extremely large loan to pay for his first year. </p>

<p>He knows that if he keeps his scholarship (requires a 3.2), my husband and I will pay the difference between his scholarship and his college costs for the rest of his undergraduate years. S now seems very motivated.</p>

<p>There are some excellent teachers who were not good students in h.s. and who have things like ADD. With motivation, people can compensate for their ADD/ADHD. No matter how well meaning parents and friends are, however, parents and friends can't be responsible for the ADD/ADHD students doing well in school.</p>

<p>I have taught at four year colleges, and have friends who teach at community colleges. I also had some excellent students who had started at community colleges. I agree with whoever posted before that teaching and advising are hallmarks of community colleges. I even suggested that my younger S go to community college because I thought that the nurturing environment would have been a good support for him. He declined to apply to one, however.</p>

9

<p>Thanks for sharing your story Northstarmom. What field is your PhD in? My son has ADD was well. We found medication tremendously helpful. Is your family opposed to this?</p>

10

<p>medication doesnt help everyone...it helped me a little but the last time i took meds(about 2 yrs ago at this time of the yr) my side effects were so bad i told my mom i was like IM getting off this meds..that was the last day ever i took adhd drugs i was in the airport in Long Beach california when i told her...im like if i keep having these side affects i dont want it...i went to ADHD Camp on nothing...ive tried ADHD Drugs i was on strattera ive tried ritalin(a couple of types of it..) concerta strattera and a few others i havent tried the new drugs...nor adderall(i refuse to go on since ive seen the side affects that it caused my friends...)</p>

11

<p>My doctorate is in clinical psychology. I am not opposed to meds. I take meds when I have a lot of work to do that requires organization. Otherwise, I don't like meds (Ritalin) because it makes me manic (too talkative and emotional). My older S didn't like meds because he said it gives him headaches. My younger S doesn't take meds because he doesn't like meds at all including even headache meds.</p>

<p>I was diagnosed around age 50. I had long ago gotten my doctorate, which proves that it's possible for highly motivated people to do well without meds (though meds can help).</p>

12

<p>I have worried about S taking meds. but my S started taking Adderral XR (slow release) in middle school and won't go to school a day without it. He can tell the difference. From the outside, I can't. But he knows that his concentration and organization is off when he doesn't take it.</p>

13

<p>"Living Outside The Lines (Two Ivy League Students With Learning Disabilities and ADHD Give You The Tools For Academic Success and Educational Revolution" By Jonathan Mooney and David Cole - get this book for your friend. It is fantastic.</p>

<p>Also check out the David Hallowell books on ADHD/ADD (he's an MD who has it), and also "Ready Or Not, Here Life Comes" By Mel Levine. Hallowell wrote the foreward for Mooney's book, and his two books (I think they are called "Driven From DIstraction" and "Driven To Distraction" or something like that) are phenomenal.</p>

<p>The four books I mentioned here will give your friend and her son the most informed and comprehensive advice available on the subject.</p>

14

<p>Thank you Northstarmom and everyone else. My son takes Concerta and can also tell the difference. But I miss the looney, creative personality he has off his meds. </p>

<p>Congratulations on your success!</p>

15

<p>Thanks for all the replies! This boy was medicated for ADHD for many years but no longer is (don't know why). He has some problems with regards to respect for authority and recently got fired from his job (at which he was actually fairly good), so he can't contribute to college costs, at least not now. They just submitted the FAFSA , so I don't know if they'll get aid, though I hope they do.</p>

<p>The kid just went to his first advising appointment, which reportedly took all for four events and involved his advisor handing him a standard, copied sheet (GE requirements, I'm guessing). It could be that you can get better advising if you fight for it, but I really can't see this particular kid being that proactive.</p>

<p>He lives in Utah, which has no formal, California-esque CC transfer, but I'm sure there's some sort of articulation sheet available.</p>

<p>Thanks again for all the help!</p>

16

<p>One more thing...Has the family ever looked into Landmark College (or some place like it)?</p>

17

<p>"He has some problems with regards to respect for authority and recently got fired from his job (at which he was actually fairly good), so he can't contribute to college costs, at least not now."</p>

<p>Sounds to me like he clearly isn't ready for college. If he can't even handle authority when he's getting paid, he won't be able to handle authority when he's in college and when he'd have to go to class, do homework, etc. for no financial reward.</p>

<p>IMO it would be a mistake for parents to pick up the slack for his irresponsibility by paying for all of his college. He needs to be held responsible for his behavior: Must get and keep a job to continue living at home. Must pay rent (If he does go to college, parents could return part or all of this to him for him to help pay for his college).</p>

<p>Must have a job to earn money for college or parents won't kick in to help pay for college. Must get decent grades in college or parents will stop paying. Must show parents his college grades or parents won't pay. Must structure self to apply to college. If the student needs parents to stand over him and make him fill out applications, he's not ready for college.</p>

<p>ADD and ADHD do not prevent people from doing well in college or being able to work jobs. People with those disorders can learn to compensate and can have discipline to accomplish what they want to do. However, making things easy for them by structuring them, paying their way, etc. only prevents the ADD/ADHD people from being motivated to succeed in school, on jobs, etc.</p>

<p>Of course, when we're talking about actual children with those disorders, parents do need to help-- sometimes help them a lot. This includes getting them diagnosed, getting them therapy for organizational skills, ieps for schooling, etc.</p>

<p>However, when those offspring are college age, they really are old enough to figure out ways to accomplish things like holding jobs and getting passing grades. This includes their using the college counseling center and other things on campus that are designed to help students.</p>

18

<p>I have the greatest respect for Northstarmom, but I don't totally agree. I would say about 2/3 of my male students and 1/3 of my female students have a problem with authority. I frequently teach English Composition, and this is the one course a student can't avoid. I am successful addressing these issues with many students (not everyone, of course.) Perhaps community college could be viewed as a form of therapy.</p>

19

<p>mythmom,
Do your students have such problems with authority that they can't hold a job?
Lots of teens have problems with authority, but when they are getting paid, they manage to overcome those problems.
That's why I say that the young man in question is not demonstrating behaviors that indicate he's ready for college now. If he can't handle authority when he's getting paid to, why should he handle authority when all he is getting is homework, tests, lectures, and the work of getting up to go to class?</p>

<p>Also, why should his parents take on all of the expense of his college when he is too lazy/disinterested to get decent grades or to go to work to help pay for his education?</p>

<p>I know that community college professors can do wonders, but I do think that even the most gifted teacher would need more to work with than this young man is showing now. </p>

<p>My perspective is colored by the fact that older S -- after getting a below 1.0 average fall of freshman year was given by his amazingly forgiving, supportive college, a schedule that included apparently some excellent professors whom S's advisor handpicked for S, who also was allowed to maintain his merit aid. S screwed that up by not bothering to go to class....</p>

<p>If S had had to pay for college, I think he'd have either taken time off or would have done his coursework. He always has been cheap when it comes to his own money. From what I've seen, most people are that way.</p>

20

<p>Northstarmom: Maybe you're right -- you certainly have more experience than I do. And I know some kids (and adults) just use up their chances. I haven't found money as central motivator as you have, but I'm sure at some point "tough love" is the only way to go. </p>

<p>For some people rebelliousness and anger go very deep. My H is like this, and it's quite difficult to understand.</p>

<p>Good luck with your sons.</p>