Help! Harvard v Duke (maybe Yale or Wharton?)!

College Search & Selection
1

Hi everyone! I’ve been looking at CC for some time now, and must say I never expected I’d be posting on it myself! But I’m really in a dilemma and would love some third party unbiased help, and thought what better place to go! I was really blessed in the admissions process, and am currently trying to decide between Harvard and Duke! Yale and Wharton are also slightly in the mix, but with time running out I feel more inclined to focus on Harvard and Duke. I got into UChicago and Dartmouth too but really am not considering them at this point.

Some other info to explain where I’m at:

-The cost is similar for all (full pay, didn’t qualify for financial aid)
-Planning on studying some combination of economics, math, CS and perhaps philosophy, but finance instead of Econ if I decide on Wharton
-Future career goal is to start a finance firm or tech company after seeing which area I like better in college
-From the Northeast so Harvard and Yale and Wharton are really well known here, but people are still impressed by Duke and seem to hold it in similar regard
-Don’t really care about being in the city as I plan to go after graduation to a big city (like NYC or Boston or SF)
-I’m sociable and value a strong balance between academics and having a good time
-Want to go somewhere with great and helpful alumni to help me navigate the ropes during and after college
-Top choice was Stanford but am on the waitlist there
-I’ve already visited Duke and Yale for their admitted students days, and just left Harvard’s Veritas (their admitted students days) today, so I’ve been able to get a good feel for all three schools. Didn’t visit Wharton since I decided I would only visit three schools

Here’s the problem: I liked Duke the most and really was looking forward to the seemingly happy community they have and fun sports culture, along with the weather, but I’m having a tough time saying no to Harvard. Even though the people I’ve spoken with in connected circles think highly of Duke, most of them thought turning down Harvard for Duke at basically the same cost wouldn’t be worth it since the connections I would get at Harvard for a future in business would be tough to match, and same with Wharton. I think Wharton was an interesting case because I’ve expressed thoughts about switching out of Wharton if I didn’t like the vibe, and in that case most people I spoke with thought Duke or Harvard or Yale would be better overall than being a normal student at Penn. Yale is in the mix too because it seemed like a balance between Harvard and Duke - I liked the residential college system, seemingly happy student body, and solid connections.

I was feeling really ready to pull the trigger for Duke after Veritas since it was pretty lackluster and dreary honestly with some bad weather, but still walking around Harvard and knowing the lore is hard to let go. Same for Yale, although I feel more comfortable letting Yale go for Duke since I feel the opportunities at both are pretty close.

So some questions:

-If I were to attend Duke, what types of opportunities would I be leaving on the table?
-I know until recently Duke has been more of a regional school, so are the alumni strong like I would find at Harvard or Wharton?
-Should I be putting this much weight on the ideas of having a good time and fun at Duke or maybe Yale, or should I go more solely for the academic/business opportunities at Harvard and Wharton? I feel like I want a balance but since some of you guys might have already gone through college, you would have thoughts on if that matters or not. Some people I’ve spoken with who went to places like Harvard and Wharton years ago seem to wish they’d gone to a more fun place for their college years like Duke which I thought was interesting, but maybe they wouldn’t have ended up where they are if they went to Duke.

Sorry for the really long post! TLDR I am leaning Duke but having a tough time letting go of opportunities at Harvard and possibly even Wharton. I basically have two days to decide, any help would be amazing!!!

2

With your academic interests in fields such as math and economics, Harvard probably should be hard to turn down based on its top-notch programs in these areas. However, should you feel you’d be more comfortable studying elsewhere, you’ll find encouragement through the candor in this interview:

https://www2.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/10/15/charlie-baker-takes-proust-questionnaire/p2B2GsYFIUnYnVLsZCiX3I/story.html

3

Dang, those are great choices. And admiration for getting this close to the deadline before deciding :slight_smile:

4

For that particular combination of economics, math, CS and philosophy, Harvard is the best of your choices, because it has very strong programs in all of those. I would actually put Chicago as the next, even though you have dropped it.

On one hand, a couple of days with bad weather shouldn’t determine anything, on the other hand, a school isn’t better if you don’t really like it.

5

Thanks for the responses! Just to respond and get some more ideas hopefully!

@merc81 I’ve thought about this and was able to sit in on some classes, and I really felt that there wasn’t a huge difference. Maybe these department strengths matter more for grad school? I think Harvard has some bigger name professors than Duke or Yale but I think the quality of teaching was actually best at Duke from my time sitting in on an Econ and Math class, and then second best at Yale. I didn’t feel a huge difference though overall at any of the schools though because I was sitting in on intro classes at regardless. Also, thanks for sharing the article! Good read, and yes I would have the same worry about not really feeling comfortable at Harvard.

@SouthernHope Haha thank you :smile:, it definitely wasn’t meant to take this long but I wanted to wait until I visited
Harvard which I finished doing today!

@MWolf Similar to what I thought for @merc81 I didn’t find the program strength to really matter at this level, but correct me if I’m wrong! I don’t know if having a well-ranked program correlates to good teaching for undergrad. And I visited UChicago when I was staying in Chicago a few years back and didn’t find it very appealing, I really only applied because I didn’t know where I would get in and I knew it was solid academically. And I agree that some bad weather shouldn’t sway my decision too much, I’ll keep that in mind. I think I just liked the vibe and students better at Duke and even Yale!

6

Thinking about this a bit more…you’re smart and you’re going to do well no matter where you go…and everyone of these schools has stellar academics…I would pick the college where you can imagine living your happiest life…enjoy basketball, enjoying hiking around the mountains of north carolina, enjoy the club sports, enjoy the spirit that’s more visible, if you will, at schools where students are there for many different reasons and not just for the classroom. You know where i’m going with this…when you walked onto the Duke campus, you had a great feeling…listen to that.

7

https://www.ivyachievement.com/computer-science-rankings/

Duke is, in fact, the highest ranked CS program of your choices.

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@undecided21 - congrats on the amazing options you have. I cannot fathom choosing Duke over Harvard (H) or Yale (Y) or Wharton (W) at the same price. The vast majority of Duke students did NOT get into H or Y or W. Sure, there are Robertson Scholars and a few Duke students that got into H and Y but the vast majority did not. Any Duke student or grad that even suggest that Duke is remotely sharing a healthy cross admit % with H and Y is just misrepresenting the facts. With that said, you cannot go wrong here. All are amazing options that few have the fortune of attending. Personally, I think the H, Y and W are in a different stratosphere than the other options in terms of the social prestige and the doors they open.

Anyone who is saying that UPenn CAS is “inferior” to Duke CAS is also just full of it. You can check out the detailed career stats available on Penn’s website and you’ll see that CAS grads (across the board) are doing exceptionally well in terms of placement into top IB and top consulting companies. The truth is that in the ivy-obsessed northeast, Penn is going to be more well regarded than Duke on average (like it or not). I would say Duke is definitely in similar company / league as Penn (with the slight edge to Penn) but Wharton is on another level (same as H, Y, and S). There will be plenty of students at W that got into H, Y, P and Stanford. The same cannot be said about Duke, although it is a great school.

Personally, I would cross off Duke, unless you can get some $$$ from them. The other options are just too good to pass up. The doors that Harvard, Yale and Wharton can open up to you are unparalleled. If you are undecided, I would go to Harvard. I think that is probably the “safest” choice. If you want business or any type of entrepreneurship, then Wharton will be a great choice.

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If you felt the most at home at Duke, please do not be swayed by “prestige” of Harvard. You will get an excellent education at Duke, fabulous alumni network, wonderful sports, and school spirit. Honestly, you have AMAZING choices here. You can’t make a wrong decision.

10

@undecided21 There are a few things you wrote that make me a bit doubtful about the “Veritas” of your post.

Harvard’s accepted student visit is Visitas, not Veritas.

“From the Northeast so Harvard and Yale and Wharton are really well known here, but people are still impressed by Duke and seem to hold it in similar regard” - Still impressed by Duke in the Northeast. Yes. Hold it in similar regard to Harvard and Yale? No way.

You wrote about your perception of the quality of teaching and name recognition of professors at the different schools. Does it matter about the name recognition of a professor if you can’t get in to his classes?

You wrote: “Planning on studying some combination of economics, math, CS and perhaps philosophy, but finance instead of Econ if I decide on Wharton” When my son was choosing between Harvard, MIT and Yale, one of the questions we asked at all the departments he was interested in was whether an undergrad who is not majoring in that department can actually get in to those classes?

The answers we received were that Harvard makes it difficult for even upperclassmen majoring in the department to get in the most popular classes in their major!

Yale made it seem much easier, and you could say the proof was in the pudding, not the Hasty Pudding
At Yale, my son, while majoring in Math had no problem getting in to a grad level course at the SOM taught by a former Treasury Secretary, an Econ seminar taught by a Nobel Prize winning economist, .and a Yale Law School seminar all in his freshman year!

My take, for what it’s worth, is Harvard #1 if you are focused on starting a finance firm.
Yale #1 if you want to take exciting seminar classes across a broad range of departments.
UChicago #1 if you are an introvert that lives and breathes Math/CS
Duke #1 if March Madness is a big thing.

As a Penn alum, with a (Wharton minor) the advising and concern for individual students doesn’t come anywhere close to that at Harvard or Yale, and they have a huge number of very large intro lecture classes that you’ll have to work through to get in to the more advanced (and interesting) seminars where you’ll have personal interaction with interesting professors.

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@tdy Since when do the famous faculty at Ivies deign to teach classes to undergraduates? That is for the visiting assistant professors and for 6-year contract, I mean tenure track, faculty. You know, the disposable faculty. Some choice courses are taught by less famous tenured faculty. The Big Names are there to lend cachet to the Ivy Brand, not to actually work. Oh maybe they’ll do a seminar, if they feel the urge.

PS. check out how few undergraduate courses are taught at Yale’s Math department by Tenured or even Tenure Track faculty. BTW, “Gibbs Assistant Professors” are simply their version of “visiting assistant professors”, i.e., hired to teach for a limited term of three years.

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@MWolf I’ll limit this to departments the OP said he was interested in that I have knowledge of:

In the Econ Dept at Yale Bob Schiller and Bill Nordhaus (both winners of the Nobel in Econ) taught undergrad courses during the time my son has been there, and also welcome undergrads into their grad level courses. Yale SOM while exclusively “grad” level makes it very easy for undergrads, even “first years” as Yale now prefers to call them, to take classes. Many of the well know YLS faculty (some with dual appointments with the Philosophy Dept) are happy to have undergrads in their seminars. Akhil Amar’s YLS Con Law class is extremely popular with undergrads. You are absolutely right about the undergrad level classes in math at Yale being largely taught by Gibbs non-tenure track professors. The tenured full professors teach grad level classes almost exclusively, but are very welcoming to undergrads with it not being uncommon for as many as a third of the students in the Math grad level classes being undergrads.

13

Thanks for more helpful comments guys! I just went on a drive with some friends to sort of get my mind off things and come back to this.

To address them:

@SouthernHope I did have a great feeling on campus! And that’s definitely a big reason I’m strongly considering Duke right now!! I think part of it is the idea that I’ve worked pretty hard up until now, so I figure going to a school with some rah-rah type of fun could be a nice experience!

@damon30 I’m not sure this ranking really helps, and I’m kind of doubtful of it. I don’t really believe Duke would be better than Harvard for CS, let alone MIT. Either way, since I didn’t get into MIT and am waitlisted at Stanford, I don’t think I’m looking too keenly at these types of rankings to determine where I’ll go, since I think the education will be fairly similar across the schools I have left (if I get off the waitlist at Stanford, then I might consider the difference in CS). I’ve been saying that but is that wrong? That’s been my impression at least! I’m more keen on seeing differences in opportunities.

@StanfordGSB00 Yes I see what you’re saying, I would agree that most students would pick Harvard or Wharton for my interests, and I think your sentiments echo most of the people I’ve talked with who are connected in business and technology - that Harvard and Wharton would be better bets. It seems that you think the difference is large enough that Duke should be out of consideration - can you tell me more specifically what type of opportunities I might miss at Duke instead of being at Harvard or Wharton? I’m asking because the people I spoke with seem to think if I do well at Duke it won’t necessarily make me worse off, I just might have to network more. And you also make a good point about switching out of Wharton to CAS - I definitely don’t think it’s any worse than Duke for academics, and I’m not really sure why a lot of the people I spoke with thought Duke would be better than CAS. It’s a small sample size so I’m sure it didn’t mean much. Either way, I would stay in Wharton in all likelihood unless I find it too competitive and aggressive. It seems you are kind of familiar with Wharton, how competitive/cutthroat have you found it, am I misinformed?

@momofsenior1 Thanks for the encouragement! I’m trying but most people I’ve spoken with are saying Harvard and some people Wharton when I’ve been talking to them so it’s hard not to think of opportunities I might miss at Duke. Do you know of anything I might not have access to at Duke?

@tdy123 Ah I made a typo! I used their motto instead of Visitas, good catch. But yes this is a real decision I’m making, I was literally at Visitas today! Re: people holding Duke in a similar regard to Harvard and Yale, I meant that as when I talked to people in industry they characterized it as it can get me where I want, just like the other two. Perhaps “similar” was the wrong word for me to use, as I didn’t intend it as meaning equals - instead, I meant they would all give me a platform to start a tech company or finance firm with a good enough brand name to provide legitimacy. Not nitpicking which might be better, but instead saying “Oh, he went to x school, he’s someone with a good pedigree that we can trust.” Do you think whoever I may have talked to is incorrect? That would be useful to know!
I’m not sure I understand your comment about getting into classes with good professors - can you elaborate?
Regarding the combination of math, economics, CS and philosophy, I am definitely not trying to have majors or minors in all of those, I would do some exploring in the first few years before picking which of those to focus on! Those are just my interests right now. My understanding was that Wharton was the most restrictive, but at Harvard, Yale, and Duke it would be quite doable to take classes in all those disciplines as they have college requirements but the requirements are diverse.
Glad to hear your son had a good time at Yale! Those types of connections at Harvard and Wharton and Yale are pretty exciting. I know you might not have a connection at Duke, but can anyone familiar with Duke speak about anything similar to what @tdy123 mentioned that I might be able to access at Duke?
Interesting to see your ranking of choices! I would say that makes sense! Although no one really recommended UChicago to me - what makes you feel it would be better than Harvard for Math and CS? I was actually under the impression that if I was going for pure academic/prestige, I could remove UChicago since Harvard would just be better in all regards. Is that incorrect? Also, yes I think you hit my reasons for Duke on the head - I play Varsity at school and really would love to go to games and be part of that whole environment and culture! When I visited they spoke about tenting outside for games with friends, and I think being able to follow Duke basketball after I graduate if I went there would be fun!

Also a general update: I went out for a bit with some friends to get fresh air and when I came back decided to rule out Yale since I actually can’t see myself picking it over Harvard or Wharton for my interests, and it’ll be just as cold. So down to just Harvard, Duke, and Wharton :smile: but I also think I’m leaning towards Harvard now since it feels like the overall best bet for any of my interests, and I think I placed more weight on the fact that it was raining most of the time I was there so kids probably were naturally more enclosed! I think its offerings may outweigh Duke’s by enough to justify a lower quality of life or less fun, but I’m definitely not decided yet and would love to hear more feedback! This has been really helpful! And I now kind of regret visiting Yale instead of Wharton since I may not have been giving Wharton a fair shot, especially since for business it’s just phenomenal!

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@undecided21 I wasn’t intending to suggest that UChicago was better for Math and CS than Harvard, nor that it was more prestigious. I was directing my comments at the atmosphere and “fit” of the students who seemed to be comfortable there based on my son’s former HS classmates who went to UChicago. Those who were very focused on Math and CS and who’s personalities were more on the introverted side had a great time and felt very at home during their years at UChicago. Again, based on reports from his HS classmates, the math department at Harvard is great, provided you have the math chops to get through Math 55. If you make it through 55 you are, as far as the math department is concerned, officially one of the elite. If you don’t… well, they’ll grudgingly tolerate your presence.

Should add that H and Y have amazing connections and are able to arrange some summer internships for their students that are otherwise unavailable to undergrads including working as a research analyst at the Bank of England and stagiaire at the European Commission.

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@undecided21 - I am very familiar with all of these schools, especially as they relate to Wall Street recruitment and top management consulting. Duke will provide you with great recruiting opportunities at all of the top firms that are large and have large recruiting efforts. What I mean by this is that a bank like Goldman Sachs will recruit from 15 or so schools for front-office investment banking and sales / trading programs. Duke is certainly one of those targets. The same applies to a top consulting company like McKinsey. However, when you start talking about ultra exclusive PE / Hedge Funds (Blackstone, Millennium, etc.), they are extremely selective and will only hire a select few at the undergrad level. Most of these funds will require new hires to have 1-2 years of post-grad experience at a bulge bracket investment bank (or equivalent at top boutiques such as Evercore, Greenhill, etc.) to be considered. While it is certainly challenging to get these opportunities even at Wharton and Harvard at the undergrad level, they are available. And they would NOT be (readily) available at Duke. Also, even for other opportunities at Goldman, JPM, etc. where they recruit at Duke, Wharton, Harvard, etc., there will be more latitude to be “middle of the pack” in terms of GPA at Harvard and Wharton than at Duke. Further, these top-tier companies usually have more “interview slots” at Wharton and Harvard compared to the others.

The higher you go up on the prestige ladder, the more “lenience” you generally have when it comes to recruitment. And not that it matters so much but from a social prestige / cache standpoint, Wharton and Harvard are two names that dominate Wall Street. Some of the top prestige-focused funds will not hire someone that doesn’t have Wharton, Harvard or Stanford pedigree at the MBA level. Wharton certainly benefits from the prestige of the MBA program. To be fully candid, I am a fan of all of these schools. You cannot go wrong but my choice would be between Harvard and Wharton.

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@tdy123 I was partially being sarcastic, and my pokes were mainly aimed at the Math Department, not economics

I know also that departments who mostly teach professionals, like economics and law, tend to hire big names specifically to expose undergraduates to their expertise, and that they also prefer to get big name practitioners to teach as adjuncts (for very good money, of course) to specifically teach undergraduates and students in the professional degree departments.

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If one knows all about Wall Street recruiting, then they also know the top ten schools only represent 30 percent of the analyst classes ?

Right ?

And no school in the top ten place enough to represent more than 4.5 percent of the incoming class.

70 percent of placements are from schools outside of the top ten.

Wharton is best. Harvard’s excellent. But you still have to be excellent among your peers. It’s no automatic OP.

Read the article recently written by a HBS alum on why all of her friends at the 15th year reunion are so unhappy. About their careers and their expectations that get oversold and repeated here by posters over and over again It’s an eye opener.

18

Honestly, I really don’t think someone who graduates with a 4.0 from Duke is any worse off than someone who graduates with a 4.0 from Harvard. All of these universities have more resources/opportunities than any individual student could conceivably need.

Duke is a younger school. Its reputation has been cemented in the past decades instead of the past centuries. The beautiful thing about the place is that it doesn’t believe in resting on its laurels. There was an excellent HBS case study on Duke entitled “Outrageous Ambition” (https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=53151). That really is Duke’s ethos.

It will take a while for Duke to be on par with the more established HYPSM schools when it comes to lagging indicators like Nobel prizes but you already see Duke producing Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, Goldwater, Churchill, Gates, and Knight-Hennessey scholars at roughly the same rate as schools like Harvard.

Nobody on this website is going to tell you to go to Duke because this is a very self-selecting population. The people on here are usually middle-aged parents who often have an outdated perception of things like prestige/name recognition.

Additionally, Duke is not a school that gets a lot of love on CC because some of the more staid members do not appreciate how vociferously some Duke alums advocate for their alma mater (it is a place that inspires intense passions).

If you believe in yourself, there is no reason why you shouldn’t choose Duke. Go there and excel. The world will be your oyster when you graduate.

If you want to walk down a more conventional path and you’re a little more risk averse, go to Harvard.

Personally, I believe you will do best at a place that feels like home. Don’t let other people make this decision for you.

19

While prestige is important, fit is more important than anything. My daughter had to choose between MIT and Duke for engineering last year, and many people told her that it was a no brainer. But, the minute she walked onto the Duke campus with an admissions decision in hand (on a miserable rainy day), she knew that is where she belonged. Flash forward one year later, after an intense work load, a crazy tenting season and throwing herself into multiple activities, she is 100% sure that she has found her people and where she was meant to be.

You need to go where you will flourish. If you work hard enough, the opportunities will be there when you graduate. My other daughter does to a school no where near as prestigious, but she has offers from multiple accounting firms, including the Big Four, all because she busted her tail.

20

I say Duke. It seems pretty obvious that you loved that campus the most. Duke has huge name recognition in the northeast. You will need to put in the work, but any of these will get you where you want to be. Pick the one the love the most.

I met a Duke alum at a friend’s NYE party. He is a retired Wall Street guy who now lives in Hawaii. He just recently decided to start his own company in NYC, so is renting a $1m condo in Hoboken. He flies back to Hawaii a couple times a month on weekends, and stays in Hoboken to run his company during the week. Duke will serve you just fine.