<p>sgiovinc1, I think Bobby is a college student. But he was courteous unlike other kids on that thread so I'll respond: No!! My son would never send me anything to look at in the first place; and he made it clear that college meant more independence and we've given it to him. I am curious about some of his courses ( those are shared interests) especially in Philosophy and he sends me papers online written by his professor to read. That's about the extent of it. We spend hours talking when he is home and that's fun. But no helping with anything in college and he probably is at a stage where he can help me than the other way around. I am proud of him that he has reached that stage! (Hey a parent is allowed to brag here, I hope).</p>
<p>Couldn't agree more, Voronwe. Excellent post!</p>
<p>Gosh, I haven't seen one paper of my daughters since she started college. I didn't expect to and actually didn't even think about it until I read this post. I feel fortunate that she signed off so we can see progress reports and grades. I agree that it's sink or swim time. I found out after that fact that she had blown her first paper in one of her humanities classes this year. She was pretty upset about that so worked extra hard to get an A on her next paper. Finding whatever it was inside of her to make that A is worth a little failure in the beginning.</p>
<p>I'm not going to knock another parent that proofs their college student's papers. I agree that one should not proof one's own work. The question here (imho) is about a student finding their own resources on campus for help instead of turning to the always available parents.</p>
<p>Why were we horrified? Because this is a top college and it seems absurd for a soph to not be able to hand in a paper until he has recieved mom's comments. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I agree with the poster who talked about apron string issues. I also wholly disagree with the posters who think mom should still help out on the job. Yes, everyone needs a second set of eyes from time to time, but it seems to me there are more appropriate resources than your parents. Yes, yes, I can hear the chorus of you being best friends with your kids. My opinion? Let go! There are mentors, tutors, peers at every school and job. These become the appropriate sounding boards. Hey, my pshyc teacher is empowering and we discussed this in class yesterday!</p>
<p>"it seems absurd for a soph to not be able to hand in a paper until he has recieved mom's comments"</p>
<p>Depends on what mom does. If she is a subject matter expert in the field, I will ask her to critique</p>
<p>Bobbie, there is a difference between proofreading and comments. </p>
<p>Either way, your opinion is yours, and in this "pro-choice" America, why don't you just make your own choice not to let a family member proofread, and allow other people to make whatever choice THEY want? Why should it concern you for even one second? More, why should it strike you as "inappropriate"? Why so judgmental? Maybe there are things YOU do that strike others as weird or inappropriate!</p>
<p>What's "appropriate" in different families and cultures is different, and by insisting that YOUR definition of "appropriate" is somehow definitive bespeaks a strange cultural centrism. Some people think giving money for wedding presents is tacky and inappropriate; in my culture, it is the HEIGHT of good etiquette and is as far from inappropriate as can be. If someone prefers that his or her mother or father proofread a paper rather than schlepping over to some overworked writing lab - where, as a previous poster pointed out, the student tutors can make mistakes - it's no skin off your teeth and there's no call to insult them.</p>
<p>I remember a thread on the Classic CC in which some adults went on and on about how they would never hire anyone to clean their houses. They implied (as is being implied on this thread) that there is some kind of human or moral failure in doing so (cleaning, or proofreading!). The answer, of course, is that people make choices for different reasons. I have someone come in to clean twice a month because I can bill my time at ten times what I pay a cleaning person, so it is inefficient, and financially stupid, not to. Other people clean their own homes - but hire people to (say) shovel their snow.</p>
<p>My point is: who gives a damn what other people do if it doesn't hurt you?</p>
<p>It also makes me wonder how incredibly judgmental you might be about OTHER differences among people.</p>
<p>On a couple of occasions my daughter asked about some sources for a paper. So I did a little work on the web to find some things (in my own area of expertise). But as a college professor myself, I would hate to think that kids are having their papers read by or worked over by their parents. Time to break the knot!</p>
<p>This is not to say that I would discourage students from having friends, roommates or others in the class from reading and commenting on drafts of papers. I think that's reasonable and often desirable. I actively encourage this for graduate students.</p>
<p>But when your kids are in college, and when it comes time for producing papers, it's time for parents to butt out.</p>
<p>Mackinaw: I repeat everything I said in my post above. One person thinks it is appropriate for a room-mate to look over a paper for typos, another thinks it's ok for a parent to. It's none of our business, and no reason to pass judgment on other people's choices.</p>
<p>I pass judgment on the choices and work of my students every day. And if they asked my advice, I'd tell them to find resources on campus and learn to learn on their own.</p>
<p>It's not a matter of "learning to learn on their own" to try and see typos. I make typos all the time that I don't notice. I don't see any post where I was talking about comments, research, editing, etc. In those cases I would agree with you 100%. But as Voronwe pointed out, we don't always see our own typos, no matter how many times we read. It ALWAYS helps to get an outside look. I wouldn't turn in ANY important paper, or try to publish one, without at least ONE other person looking at it! This is RECOMMENDED at my kids' schools (both top ten schools). I taught college for 15 years, and there was NEVER a reason for me to know whether a person reading a student's paper for typos shared the same DNA. It is <strong><em>absolutely irrelevant,</em></strong> and in the cases of absolute irrelevancy, I do NOT pass judgment.</p>
<p>I pass judgment on choices that matter.</p>
<p>Logging off this thread. Knock yourselves out slaughtering innocent kids who ask a relative to take a peak at a paper for typos!</p>
<p>My first post on this thread wasn't a response to your comments. It was a response to the OP.</p>
<p>I didn't get that typos was what was at issue, I thought we were discussing two things, parents that discuss ideas, and parents that get more involved to the point of routinely proofreading and editing.
I agree that while parents may be capable of editing a paper, that college is a great place to begin to utilize outside resources if they haven't already.</p>
<p>My D has attended a huge public HS where the teaching is uneven, class sizes are huge, relatively few papers are assigned, and the time spent on each paper is minimal. I had classes in college with 60+ people and weekly papers; the profs often wrote 3-5 <em>paragraphs</em> of insightful comments on my papers. My D gets outright errors circled & maybe two or three phrases (at best) commenting on a 4 page paper. This is not enough feedback to teach her to write. </p>
<p>Though she brought me very few HS papers to read (very self-sufficient kid), I wish now that she would have. It has been "catch up" time this past year; some of the errors she made on tests prepping for SAT 2 writing boggled my mind. She is a senior who has never been taught grammar!! Luckily she got a great deal by ear from living in a home where parents speak correctly and from reading <em>a lot</em>. ;-)</p>
<p>For her app essays, I read them and gave the sort of comments on content ('probe this idea, go deeper'; 'examples of this?') that an english prof would have given... Her HS english teacher read it too, but she just stuck to grammar, errors... very few substantive comments. </p>
<p>My point is that not all kids are getting the resources they need in school to incorporate and internalize the principles of fine writing. My D may need a little transitional help if she is admitted to a good school, and I wouldn't mind giving it to her. Not to resist separation, but to get her up to speed with her prep school peers a little faster.</p>
<p>Help my children with their papers? Ha! My two haven't let me see their papers before turning them in since they were both in elementary school. Believe me, I've begged but no go. I doubt they'll relent when they're in college. :)</p>
<p>well said SBmom!</p>
<p>Amen, SBmom. </p>
<p>Our local university provides four years of hand-holding remedial help to certain low-income students (and you wouldn't BELIEVE the help they get); the rich kids at this school (where I volunteer) think nothing of paying $80 an hour for private tutors (the going rate in our area), not to mention spending up to $250 to BUY papers; the Writing Lab is AWFUL and always overbooked; the frats sneak copies of previous exams and recycle papers; I've got kids stealing stuff off the Internet left and right; and people are going to get high and mighty and all bent out of shape because, as Nedad eloquently put it, some poor normal kid gets a tiny bit of honest help from someone with the same DNA?</p>
<p>Also, it seems to me that the rage against parental - and ONLY parental - help, while applauding every other form (tutors, labs, other campus resources, no matter how good or bad) , is a bit strange and may say more about the one who protests than the one who gets help! Not every kid who gets some parental advice or help is some sort of "apron-strings" dependent misfit,and not everyone who does NOT is some independent moral or intellectual giant. There is simply NO necessary connection.</p>
<p>Crack down on the cheaters and plagiarizers before instituting a DNA litmus test for a little minor guidance! Jeesh!</p>
<p>What's the big deal? I teach writing, and I NEVER send in final evaluations without having my husband second-read them for typos. And when I was in college, I was the English major in the dorm that always got papers shoved under my nose for proofreading. Then why the heck WOULDN'T I do the same for my son if he cares to e-mail me a paper when he gets to college next year? I'll tell him if I see typos, errors or even spots that need develpment. That's not the same as writing it for him. It IS the same as having a well-informed friend read and give thoughtful advice. I don't see what's wrong with it. I do the same for my very well-educated, articulate husband in his job, as he occasionally does for me in mine when I'm too irritated with someone to know for certain that I'm being completely objective.</p>
<p>AMEN, voronwe!</p>
<p>I think a very important thing here is that one goes to college to LEARN, not to prove to the world how much they already know and are capable of. If a student learns to improve their work through the guidance or feedbak of another, isn't that a good thing!?</p>
<p>Well said, voronwe!! I was thinking the same thing: where exactly is this dime-store psychoanalyzing coming from, anyway?</p>
<p>Whoa Nedad, you make a lot of conclusions about me without knowing the origin of my question. Also, do you guys not trust spell check or something? So here's what's at hand: A fresman approached me and a few others early in the week. He had taken a fax off the machine in his room that he thought was his. Turned out to be from the mother of a guy he rooms with. The paper was heavily edited and paragraphs rewritten. He wanted to know whether it was an honor code violation. If it is, he has to report it. None of us wanted to make a rash judgement. We discussed on a theory level with some profs but didn't get a clear answer. The apron string dimestore psychoanalyzing came from a very distinguished ivy professor by the way. We're still unclear on this.</p>