<p>You may have seen this thread in the college search/selection board, but I also decided to post something similar here to see what information I could gather.
My daughter is very interested in photography and studio art, and is possibly considering doing a double major with one of those and English or Spanish. She has placed national and statewide art competitions quite a few times and her extracurriculars revolve around photo and studio art (president of the photography club, does art-related community service with inner city and disabled children). Her art and photography teachers tell us that she is very talented and have been encouraging her to apply to art schools, however, my husband and I want her to go to a university because we want her to have more options than just art. I was hoping to get some advice on colleges to which she might be admitted, considering the following:
Her unweighted GPA is a 3.6. Her SAT scores are as follows: 630CR/620M/650W. Her strengths (other than art) are English and Spanish, and she is pretty average at all other subjects.
She wants a big, liberal school. We are from California, so her top preference is staying in California, although anything out west is fair game and she is also telling me that she would be willing to go anywhere warm, provided it is not too conservative (i.e. no deep south schools, probably).
Her list so far is:
UCSC (we don't know much about the art programs here, any information would be helpful)
Pitzer and Scripps (we are aware that these are smaller schools, but she really likes the Claremont consortium)
UCSD (also unsure about art programs here)
She is also somewhat interested in UCLA, given that my husband and I both went there, but I think it would be a big reach for her considering her GPA, test scores, etc.
We have been toying around with the idea of UC Boulder, UCSB (although we live very close to UCSB--less than an hour by car--and therefore she is reluctant).</p>
<p>Calimom70,</p>
<p>Ah, my favorite subject! I can offer some thoughts but first a few questions so we can help:</p>
<p>1.) Your daughter is a rising Senior?
2.) Can you supply a link to her work either in this forum or via PM?
3.) Tell me about the HS. Private/public, lots of AP’s, etc.?</p>
<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>Calimom, how great that your daughter has so many interests and is so talented. I have a suggestion that might help your search for schools. Does your high school offer Naviance college search site? For me, it was very helpful to see where my kids fit in the school for acceptance and to easily get to websites to look at various programs. My belief is that UCLA is going to have the best art programs of the schools you listed, but I can not confirm nor deny. I went there and thought the art department was wonderful (although many years ago)…Good luck and I know you will get good advice here.</p>
<p>Yes, my daughter is a rising senior. She has asked that I not share any links to her work, so I’m sorry if that causes difficulties in helping us create a list for her. She is very particular about things like this (as a mom I guess I just don’t understand!) I will try to see if I can change her mind.</p>
<p>She goes to a rigorous private high school and will graduate with 3 AP classes (English, Spanish, and Environmental Science). She has taken all Honors classes in English and Spanish, but only takes regular classes otherwise.</p>
<p>Her school does have Naviance, however what this shows us about UCLA is that it is extremely difficult to get into. This is continuously one of (if not the single) most applied to universities, and out of the thirty or so applicants (small school–class size of about 60), usually only 10-15 are accepted. This might seem like a lot, but my daughter’s class is very strong, so I feel that she should not put all her eggs in that basket. Besides all that, I know it’s probably different from when I attended, but I just don’t think it would be the right place for her judging by my experience there.</p>
<p>Are there any other schools with reputable art/photography departments that fit our other criteria?</p>
<p>Calimom70,</p>
<p>Our daughters are very similar (artist, photographer, SoCal, stats, private HS) with mine being two years older. We just went through all this and we both learned a lot in the process and she is in her 2nd year at UCLA-Arts. I also have a younger daughter (junior) who may or may not follow the same photo path so I’ve kept up on what’s happening at her likely list of schools.</p>
<p>It might sound strange but as a family we like this process. We’ve been to about 25 campuses as a group and I’ve been to about 10 more alone. I’ve seen about 1,500 application portfolios (mostly photo) and I’ve seen which portfolios get picked. So I’ve learned way more than I ever thought I would about the wonderful world of college fine art photography.</p>
<p>I could talk about this subject for hours… not sure where to start? Hmm, I’ll just ramble.</p>
<p>College admissions for artists are all over the map. Some universities just glance at the portfolio (hi Pepperdine) and care more about the stats, and some are the opposite putting the portfolio first. Your list of college apps will need to address this but we can get to that in time. General speaking, we want the schools that pay more attention to the portfolio. IMO, the pickier the better. </p>
<p>I like Naviance as a tool but it’s almost worthless for artists. Let’s look at UCLA admission stats to show you what I mean. Here’s the stats for all incoming freshmen last year –> [UCLA</a> Office of Analysis and Information Management | AIM](<a href=“http://www.aim.ucla.edu/admissions/admissions.asp]UCLA”>http://www.aim.ucla.edu/admissions/admissions.asp) This shows us that the average GPA was 4.25 meaning 50% were above and 50% below that number. This is also what the Naviance scattergram would depict. But now lets look at admissions data from the UCLA School of Art –> <a href=“http://www.aim.ucla.edu/admissions/admissions_GPA_FR.asp[/url]”>http://www.aim.ucla.edu/admissions/admissions_GPA_FR.asp</a>
So 3.8 GPA for admitted artists. About half point lower on average every year.</p>
<p>The reason for this is simple: schools with heavy investment in an arts program need to fill it with talented kids or none of it works. In this case talent might be more important than super high GPA. All very similar to the way it works for athletes. Naviance doesn’t work for athletes either.</p>
<p>So, long winded way of saying don’t give up on UCLA just yet.</p>
<p>If we’re looking at CA and Western States schools for fine art photo than I would encourage you to look at these schools:</p>
<p>California
UCLA
USC, UC Berkeley, UC Irvine, UCSD
UC Davis, UC Riverside, Loyola Marymount, UCSB
CSU Northridge
(Sorry I don’t know much about the Claremont schools but I’ve heard that McKenna is the best for art.)</p>
<p>Western States
U of New Mexico
U of AZ
AZ State</p>
<p>I’ve listed them in a rough tiering of how I see these programs but let me add that ALL are very good at educating for liberal arts photography. As an example, CSUN is last on my list and yet they should be proud that one of their graduating photo kids just got accepted to Yale’s MFA photo program. (You might as well tell me he’s the new starting pitcher for the Yankees.) So a great example of how good all of these programs are.</p>
<p>Jeez, ramble much Wheaty? Sorry.</p>
<p>Happy to answer any questions.
Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>Thank you, Wheaty! That was extremely helpful. For the schools you have listed, are these mostly portfolio-driven, or do any of them focus on stats more?</p>
<p>My daughter is a very single-minded person sometimes, so the schools that she has agreed to take a look at are:
UCLA (of course), USC, Berkeley, Irvine (although she is really against this one), UCSD, UCSB (although she is reluctant because it is so close to home), U of New Mexico, U of AZ, AZ State. </p>
<p>If we were to include the east coast in our search, what options would we have then? Or if we included the northern west coast?</p>
<p>Also, I noticed that you didn’t mention UCSC. We have visited UCSC, and D really got a good feeling from it. Is their art department no good?</p>
<p>Calimom70,</p>
<p>At UCLA, UNM and USC it’s mostly about the portfolio. Stats have to be at your daughters level or above but her portfolio has to be in the top 5%. UCLA admits about 45 art students per year and they now get about 1,000 applicants. USC numbers are similar.</p>
<p>UCI, UCD are about 50/50 on portfolio and stats.</p>
<p>UCSD is VERY stats driven. So much so that it might be harder to get there vs UCLA given a top 5% portfolio.</p>
<p>UCSB, UCB, UCR, AZSt and UA are more like 70/30 in favor of stats with UCB starting to move more toward portfolio.</p>
<p>Your daughter’s reluctance about UCI is demographics?</p>
<p>Assuming your D’s work is top 5% then her stats would lead me to say:</p>
<p>Reach - UCLA, USC, UCB, UCSD
Slight reach - UCSB, UCI, UCD
Likely - UNM, UA
Safety - UCR, AZST</p>
<p>I didn’t list UCSC because I don’t know anything about their art department. I never see them mentioned, and never see alum work and I’m pretty actively looking. Having said that, it is VERY important to pick a school that your daughter LOVES. Even if that means a ‘lesser regarded’ art department. So if she loves UCSC then Wheaty advice means zippo!</p>
<p>East Coast opens up a ton of good schools. I’ll work on that list next.
Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>PS. Don’t let me forget to mention the double edged effect of portfolio evaluations! Next post.</p>
<p>Please discuss the double edge effect of portfolio reviews. This is all very interesting! Thanks.</p>
<p>Yes, your audience is anxiously awaiting the discussion of portfolio reviews!
: )</p>
<p>Oops, my PS was meant to be a reminder to myself to bring up this point about portfolio reviews. I didn’t intend it to be dramatic or lightning-bolt-profound or anything like that. I’m just getting forgetful in my old age.</p>
<p>Okay, here’s what I mean about my comment on portfolio reviews.</p>
<p>Reviewing any art work can sometimes be easy but often times it’s very difficult. You and I may consider ourselves expert art critics and yet you like this image and I don’t. That’s part of what makes art interesting. Why do we like an image? This whole area of discussion is terrific and the conversations can be fun but you can see the problem this causes us as art college hopefuls.</p>
<p>A high school senior works hard at their art, assembles what they feel is their best work, and submits all of that to several colleges and art programs for review. The work is then reviewed usually by a single person in the art department for the purpose of sorting the wheat from the art chaff.</p>
<p>So here we are at the moment of truth, our 10 to 20 images are being judged. Often times it comes down to one image - ‘wow, this kid really gets it’ - and poof, your app goes to the ‘wanted stack’ for further review and discussion. But just as easily the review isn’t as positive and the app is closed and most likely done for that school. This is what I meant by the review as a double edged sword from an admissions standpoint.</p>
<p>So, I think that the reviewers get it mostly right most of the time. But how do you reflect this in Naviance scattergrams? You don’t. Most high school counselors don’t understand this issue. For the most part they just don’t have the time. Out of 100 kids they might get 1 artist and their job is best spent on the 99 boring ones (:)). When my daughter applied to UCLA, USC and Wake Forest the counselor said “no, no, and hell no” based on her stats and the Naviance charts. Don’t bother applying, waste of time. The schools said yes, yes and yes please.</p>
<p>IMO, you have to chart your application course carefully and understand the sometimes randomness of the art review process. A math major has it easier in this sense. Naviance is almost fool proof here as is USN&WR rankings of math departments. Not so easy in the land of art.</p>
<p>As I said, I like Naviance but it doesn’t help us much. Ditto for athletes. In fact, I think artists and parents are better served to consider art majors as athletes with respect to the application process. The review process is very similar, stats versus performance is similar, and on and on.</p>
<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>Calimom70,</p>
<p>I keep forgetting to mention the following:</p>
<p>1.) When talking about the UC schools make sure to recalculate her GPA using the UC method ([University</a> of California - Calculating GPA](<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/counselors/q-and-a/calculating-gpa/index.html]University”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/counselors/q-and-a/calculating-gpa/index.html)) which is:
- only use only soph and junior years
- only A-G classes
- chop off all “+'s” and “-'s”</p>
<p>2.) You mentioned that she’ll double major. In that case the other major is just as important as art so you have to look at universities with both majors in mind.</p>
<p>3.) You mentioned that she prefers liberal schools over conservative and that she likes English. Have you looked at the little known but super cool College of Creative Studies at UCSB? CCS is a 60’s style free form education. No grades are given. Great professors and VERY highly regarded. It’s sort of a grad school for undergrads. They offer a Creative Writing major that might be right up your daughters alley. They also offer art but not photography. But she could take photo in the regular UCSB art department as the other half of her double major. Over 50% of CCS grads get placed in really strong grad programs. CCS is difficult to get into and this would be a Berkeley type reach for her.</p>
<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>East Coast</p>
<p>When you say photography, liberal, and East Coast my very first thought is:</p>
<p>Bard</p>
<p>I say that because Bard is routinely voted as one of the most liberal campuses in the U.S. and they have Stephen Shore. Shore is considered one the most important photographers in contemporary fine art photography. Together with William Eggleston and Cindy Sherman and a few others they make up a turning point in fine art photography. He’s a big deal. He’s also one of the professors in the photo department at Bard.</p>
<p>Bard is not for everyone and so if you’re interested I would visit to find out more.</p>
<p>But getting past this Wheaty knee-jerk response, there are MANY great East Coast colleges that would fit your daughter’s requirements. There are many on this forum that know more about schools in this part of the country but here’s some schools to start a discussion. (No particular order.)</p>
<p>East Coast University photo programs
Virginia Commonwealth
Carnegie Mellon
NYU
Bard
Yale, UPenn, Columbia (all super reach, all stats priority)
Duke (super reach. Program is in an old tobacco warehouse. Beautiful.)
St. Johns-ICP (the ICP part is VERY cool and this would be a safety for you.)</p>
<p>Mid-West
Ohio State
U of Wisconsin
U of Iowa (outstanding art department that nobody ever mentions!)
Penn State</p>
<p>Pacific North West
U of Washington</p>
<p>I’m missing a ton of schools and hopefully others here will fill in for me. I know I’m missing several obvious schools but I’m also missing a few brain cells…</p>
<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>Wheaty, you mention upthread: "'I’ve seen about 1,500 application portfolios (mostly photo) and I’ve seen which portfolios get picked. "</p>
<p>Just curious, how did you get to see those? Was this in the process of visiting all those schools, or online or? I ask because I would absolutely love to review some accepted portfolios just for a ‘reality check’–to see, just in general, where my D might fall in the spectrum. Knowing, of course, as you say, it is subjective.</p>
<p>Also she’s just starting her junior year this fall, seeing some accepted portfolios might be good so she knows more about what to include in hers. Quality and range of pieces wise, not copying wise!</p>
<p>Artmama,</p>
<p>It just comes with time. I’ve been actively involved for about 4 years now. Group portfolio reviews, 4 college summer school classes, National Portfolio days, lots of campus visits, etc. And much to the chagrin of my daughters, I ask a lot of questions. {insert teen eyeroll} </p>
<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>Her UC GPA is a 4.1, but she has still gotten a lot of B’s, so I’m unsure as to whether I have calculated it correctly. I’ve sent an email to her guidance counselor, but he is quite unhelpful and hasn’t responded to me yet. Is an A in an AP course worth a 5.0?</p>
<p>I know she wants to double major, but since she is unsure as to what she wants to major in (English or Spanish, possibly), we definitely just want a big university that is strong in a lot of areas so she has choices (and can also do art).</p>
<p>The College of Creative Studies sounds really interesting, definitely going on her list!</p>
<p>We are currently researching the rest of the schools you have given us, and thank you so much for all your help so far!</p>
<p>Yep an AP grade of A = 5 points. For UC’s count only A-G classes for soph and junior years and drop the +'s and -'s and average it all out. Understanding how the different UC schools see applicants is important. </p>
<p>If it’s a UC GPA of 4.1 then great but don’t forget about that stupid sword I mentioned. Meaning that a less than positive portfolio review can knock even a 4.1 out of the running for any school… including a safety. Art kids have two hurdles to cross over, stats and portfolio, and failing at either means failing at both. </p>
<p>I’m a big fan of safeties and one thing you may want to add to your list of schools is a non-art safety. Maybe reverse the majors and declare let’s say Spanish as her first choice and art as her second. Doing this ensures that she goes to at least one college for sure and once there can apply for the dual in art. In your D’s case let’s say that would be UC Riverside, as Spanish, at a 4.1/1900 and that would be at least a 95% certainty IMO. No portfolio review means no stupid Wheaty double edged nonsense means lock it down put it in the bank I’m going to college. In the best case try to do one of these as a non-binding early decision so you can remove some drama during those long months of waiting for answers.</p>
<p>BTW, what’s she doing this summer? Not too late for college summer school.</p>
<p>Best,
Wheaty</p>
<p>A week from Saturday she’ll be off to Rhode Island for a RISD pre-college summer program.</p>
<p>Are there any other schools besides Riverside that would be a safety for her if she declared her major as Spanish? I suggested Riverside to her a few weeks ago and she shot down the idea immediately (I will try again, but we know how teenage girls can be…). Once again, I feel that this question could be asked of our GC but he doesn’t always offer the best of advice.</p>
<p>I am thinking of flying out to RI at the end of the six-week program to pick her up and doing a round of college visits on the east coast, or possibly changing our flights and doing a couple visits before the program starts. My husband and I might tour a couple of schools while she’s away because when the program ends she only has about three weeks before school starts (and has a lot of summer reading, etc. which I just know she won’t start until the week before school starts).</p>
<p>Thanks again wheaty!</p>
<p>I don’t know if Roski at USC is comparable in quality to some of the other excellent arts/creativity based majors there (film, music, drama etc.), but if it is, that would be another California school that is large-ish and certainly liberal within its very active arts community. With majors that have their own admissions committees, admissions seems to be entirely portfolio/audition/submitted work-oriented assuming the applicant is within the university’s acceptable range numbers-wise. So while your D would have to meet the threshold criteria for admission to the university itself in terms of grades/test scores (which I think she does), her portfolio would then be the significant factor. Also, while USC has a higher sticker price than the UC’s, in addition to having FA, they are extremely generous with merit aid, and the arts departments seem to have a good deal of merit-based money to play with.</p>
<p>RISD pre-college is the perfect answer! Very cool! Good, good, good. </p>
<p>Oh I was just using UC Riverside as an example. Yes, you should use your counselor especially for determining non-art safeties. She should love her safety and be excited to go there where ever that may be.</p>
<p>The more campus visits the better and so yeah I encourage you to add more.</p>
<p>Happy to help,
Wheaty</p>
<p>Calimom, how fabulous that your daughter is going to the RISD program. I have heard nothing but great things about it. My daughter’s roommate from last summer at SAIC is going too and she is the most wonderful young woman (from Philadelphia). I think your daughter will have a great understanding about art school given the way the summer program is run at RISD. I hope she has a great time!</p>