Help me, help him.

College Search & Selection
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<p>I am trying to help my friend with his college search. </p>

<p>Do you have any facts that show that a history major from say Yale and a political journalist major from GW have the same shot at the same journalism job/internship and that maybe the Yale student has a little better shot?
Just something that shows that you can major in something not directly related to your potential career and still have a great opportunity.</p>

<p>Also, do you have anything that shows that how much debt the average student is in for certain colleges? I just want to show that most students have a more manageable debt than say 200,000 dollars when they walk out of undergrad.</p>

<p>If you were curious, the issue is that he is only applying to two schools that he doesn't even like that much because of money fears. I want to show him that there are more opportunities out there and that money should not stop you from going somewhere you love.</p>

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<p>40 views and no replies.</p>

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<p>Actually, money should stop you from going someplace.</p>

<p>It's not worth it to be in massive amounts of debt. There are so many affordable colleges that there HAS to be a place less than 50K/yr that he can love. I'm double majoring in history and journalism at UMCP despite being accepted to and in love with Medill at Northwestern. Am fully anticipating having a great time, learning a ton, and kicking the snot out of any Yalie vying for the same internship/job position as me. You are not being a good friend if you are pushing expensive schools on him rather than helping him to see the bright side in some more affordable universities. If he is planning to be a journalist, financial conerns are doubly important, because most writers make VERY meager salaries.</p>

<p>Finally, the statistics you suggest would be disgustingly skewed. The average student at Yale would be more intelligent and qualified (due to admissions standards, not knowledge gained at university) than the average student at GW. Therefore, hiring #s probably would not reflect that Yale and/or a history major better or equally prepares a student for a specific job in comparison to another school and major. But, in the case of journalists, you are 100% correct in that it is not necessary to major in journalism to be a sucessful journalist. In fact, MOST journalists do not choose to major in journalism, and certainly most combine their studies in journalism with a degree in another field.</p>

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<p>I agree and disagree with the above statements.</p>

<p>First of all, I think the money thing really depends on the individual. Some people think it's worth it to pay more money to go that dream school, while others don't. There is no right or wrong answer. </p>

<p>I agree that it's a good idea to use potential career as one of the factors in determining whether or not it's worth it, but I wouldn't say that income is the only way to look at it - if you plan on going into a highly competitive field, I'd say that it's worth it to go to the better school. Even if the career you're after isn't lucrative, a big name will grant you better access to getting good jobs in the field, which, lets face it, are going to be extremely difficult to get. On the other hand, if you plan on going into a minimally competitive field (such as high school education or social work), the name of your school makes no difference whatsoever, so it's better to save money. </p>

<p>Referring to the GW/Yale thing...typically Yale will provide the better education, so that gives it the advantage right away. BUT - at the root of it, if you work hard, you can be successful no matter where you go. It may take more work, but it's possible. </p>

<p>Why not suggest Mizzou to your friend? It's one of the top schools in the country for journalism, so there would be good job statistics, and it's pretty cheap. (Although, if he chooses to major in something other than journalism, I'd suggest at least taking a minor in it - journalistic writing is completely different from other types of writing, so he'd need to learn some of the basics).</p>

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<p>^I have seen too many kids choose prestige and debt over the decent state uni. As a result, they were unable to move out of their parents house, much less go to grad school or relocate for the best job, while those graduating from less expensive universities had more doors open to them. Of course, the amount of debt and career options is a significant factor. There is a difference between 20K in debt with a business or engineering degree and a plan to become a high-powered CEO (for all intents and purposes perfectly reasonable) and 120K in debt with a history degree and a plan to become a journalist (virtual financial ruin). And a difference between debt both you and your parents would be responsible for, and debt you would be forced to pay back on your own. A difference between taking on debt with the help of well-off parents vs. not so well-off parents. Another significant factor is the gap in the educational quality of the schools. Usually it is not that large. Top 20 privates vs. Top 20 publics? All equally good choices for a top-notch education, provided you work hard and choose your professors wisely. You will not generally get a leg up in competitive job fields from attending Yale vs. a good state university. Both of my parents hire for their firms and say this.</p>

<p>The bottom line is, more information is needed to know whether it is you or your friend who in the right, i.e. what schools he is choosing between (and what he likes/dislikes about each), his plans for work and further education, the amount of proposed debt and of course he and his parents' financial situation in regards to said debt (too personal probably for him to even divulge the details to you, much less for you to post them on this forum). But you cannot go wrong by finding academically good but affordable schools (either by means of merit scholarships or good financial aid), presenting REALISTIC information about debt (the parents on this site will be glad to provide you with a debt calculator and realistic salaries needed to pay said debt off comfortably), and encouraging him to have an honest discussion with his family about finances. Anything else, imho, would be overstepping your boundaries.</p>

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<p>I want to point out that first, I am trying to make it clear to my friend, that no matter what I say about prestige and making more money, it would be his decision because the weight of his choices affect him and his family alone.</p>

<p>I've also told him that going to any university, he will be top of his class and could become very successful no matter if it's from community college or Ivy league because that's just the kind of person he is.</p>

<p>That being said, I wanted him to look at "better" schools because he is afraid that he won't receive scholarships from there to be able to attend. If he doesn't look at a school, he can't fall in love with it. I was going to use the better opportunities and greater starting salary as a motivation factor to even look at the schools. ("If I go into a little more debt at school A, I can pay it off faster than from school B.")</p>

<p>In order for him to look at all of his choices, I was also trying to convince him that you don't specifically need a journalism degree (though it is the most direct route) to become a journalist. I think that the posters would agree with that. But if Sally was a history major at school B and Joan was a journalism major at school B, assuming they are equally bright and hard-working, Joan would have the leg up. So in order for a history major to be really competitive with a journalism major, Sally should consider school A instead because it has that name-brand halo, still assuming they are equally bright and hard-working.</p>

<p>My goal was basically to keep his options open until May. If he only applies to two schools, he can only choose between two schools. If I can't show him the benefits of taking on a little more debt, than he will just continue to look at schools of the same caliber where he will likely recieve great financial aid. (Which are not bad schools. He would recieve a great education) If he applies to five schools and still ends up picking one of the two original, I would be satisfied because I would believe that he analyzed his options more thoroughly.</p>

<p>worldchanger, I will suggest Mizzou to him and hope he truly examines it.</p>

<p>If you all can suggest any other schools that would be likely to produce a young person competitive in the journalistic world, please do. No school is off limits. </p>

<p>Thank you for responding. I did consider what you all were saying about it being his decision and maybe out of my jurisdiction as a friend, but my ultimate plans are not to drop him into an endless pit of debt where he can't get out.</p>

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<p>Why isn't your friend interested enough in his future college and career to be posting here? You seem to be doing a lot of work for someone who doesn't seem to be that interested in getting info to help himself lead the life of his dreams.</p>

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<p>I have been where your friend has been. It broke my heart to turn down my dream school. Had my friends been pressuring me, I would have felt even more badly, despite any disclaimers added. Northwestern's Medill School of Journalism is THE best university in the nation for the profession. But despite that, the majority of graduating journalists from Northwestern - just like the majority of graduating journalists from ANY university - end up in small, out of the way towns writing for local papers (at first). Journalism is not a career where going to a high-end, hoity-toity school will give you a significant leg up breaking into the field. Almost 100% of journalists begin with extremely low-paying jobs, making debt something that warrants very real fear. It is a difficult career to be in, one that suffers from dwindling demand and extremely low salaries, and one in which the path to advancement is starting at the bottom and working your way up through the ranks. What does give you a leg up is educating yourself about your world and the people in it, and then taking your education to the school paper and to freelance articles. Good stories and a keen mind will make you, not what university you attended.</p>

<p>Your Sally and Joan example is wrong. Joan does not really have a leg-up by virtue of a journalism degree on her resume - most journalists are not journalism majors. What a journalism degree does provide is acess to the school paper and the students involved in it, classes that force you to gain experience, and high exposure to internship opportunities. What Sally as a history major needs to do is not go to Yale, but put in the extra effort at whatever university she decides to attend to get hands-on journalistic experience at her school paper and in "the real world" and to build a resume of clips on her own. </p>

<p>That said, your friend may not be being realistic about his abilities to achieve merit scholarships, and the schools he is planning to apply to may well be "bad" enough to warrant considering some more academically challenging options. Schools with varying decent-good journalism programs and academics (plus a chance for scholarship opportunities for qualified students/cheap in-state rates), include University of Texas - Austin, Indiana University - Bloomington, University of Ohio - Athens, Syracuse University, University of Southern California, University of Maryland - College Park, and UNC - Chapel Hill (very competitive for OOS students but an A+ option if he is in-state). IMHO, Mizzou is a strong journalism school but lacking in academics otherwise. Public schools with strong political science/history/international relations degrees - although lacking a journalism major or not known for their journalism programs - would also be good options, such as UMich, William and Mary, UVa, and University of Wisconsin - Madison (although these can be pricey for OOS students and too competitive for your friend to recieve merit scholarships). SU and USC immediately appear to have high price tags, but I recieved a large scholarship to both (although the final price for each at ~35K/yr did not stand up to a cost/benefit analysis). I could have a better idea of what schools to recommend if I knew what two schools he is already looking at (for example, some of my suggestions may not be as academically strong as the two schools he is already considering, in which case...), where he can get in-state rates, and how competitive his stats make him for merit scholarships. </p>

<p>I looked at many of the schools I mentioned, and UMCP was truly an amazing combination of affordability and good academics. The journalism program specifically is excellent due to its proximity to and subsequent connections in Washington, DC.</p>

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<p>You might have been thinking of such schools as JHU, Georgetown, Harvard, Chicago, Yale, Northwestern, Tufts - these schools do NOT for all intents and purposes offer merit scholarships are EXTREMELY expensive. Yes, they provide a good education for a journalist, but if your friend does not qualify for financial aid, they are probably not options, as much as he (or you) might love them. I would suggest not going that route when suggesting schools to him.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom - When I discovered CC one day while (I should have been) studying for APs, I did suggest it to my friend as a great resource and I may have mentioned it again. It's not that he is not interested in his college search, he is simply using different resources than I am. CC is not the ultimate college source, but it is MY favorite. </p>

<p>umpc11 - First, I am sorry that money was the main factor keeping you from your dream school. It shouldn't be that way, but that's the way it is in some cases. I hope that it is not the case for my friend. My friend does not have a dream school as of yet. It's possible that his dream school could end up being a "less prestigious" school, but I honestly believe that it won't. I think the extra amount of intellectualism in some of the "more prestigious" schools will be what he is looking for. But he seems to give them only a passing glance because of money. If he would just apply, he could find out whether they will give him a decent amount of aid or not. If in the end it is not enough and he does decide to go to one of the two original schools, it is his choice. It may not have been what I would do or what I hoped he would do, but I will support him in May.</p>

<p>As for the Joan and Sally example, maybe only as a high school senior, I do not know the real world as well as you might, but I do think that a journalism major would have a better shot at a job as a history major from the same school. Like you said, journalism majors would have greater access to resources. Yes, Sally could put the extra work in as a history major at the "lesser" school and still be competitive and successful, but I think it would be easier and maybe quicker from the "better" school. </p>

<p>I think you are right about being realistic with merit scholarships, but also with need-based scholarships. I think he (and I) don't understand what the financial aid takes into account and assume that he won't get as much aid as he wants. Merit based scholarships, to me, are a crap shoot. You can't assume that you will or won't get them. Just apply and see what happens. </p>

<p>I wrote down the list of schools and will try to present them to him (in a non-aggressive way) with others I have thought of. He is trying to stay where it snows, though, so the CA schools and TX ones would probably not be his dream schools in the end, and thus not worth the extra money. Your comment about Mizzou is interesting because I am afraid that one of the two schools he is considering (and leaning towards) is strong in one area and one other closely related area, but if he finds out he would much rather be a math/science person or even just something no longer related to journalism and politics, he doesn''t have great options. Transfering is always a possiblity, though. </p>

<p>Again, my main goal is to at least apply to some schools he doesn't think he can afford so that maybe he will find his personal dream school and if it is his dream school, he may be willing to take on a few more loans or he may not. In order to get him to look at a broader list of schools, I have to show him that a journalist does not have to be a journalism major. Maybe I am setting him up for heartbreak like what happened to you. I really don't want to hurt him by helping him find his dream school and convincing him that he'll get money and then have that be wrong. </p>

<p>I am glad that you responded, umcp11, as someone who was in the same situation. It gives a more real world attitude to what I'm doing than an idealistic one.</p>

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<p>He needs to look at the web sites of schools that interest him to find out their financial aid and merit scholarship possibilities as well as their total costs.</p>

<p>He also needs to take the time to read some basic info about how to best apply for colleges. In addition, he would be wise to give a call to some local journalists to get their advice on what he should do now and in college to achieve his career goals.</p>

<p>Even though you say he's using other sources than CC to find out info, from your questions and from what you say his plans are, my impression is that he's not doing a particularly good job of finding out information. Being a good researcher is probably the most important skill any journalist can have. I speak as one who has been an award-winning journalist and also has trained young people, including high school students, who became award-winning student and professional journalists.</p>

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<p>Well, there's a sure-fire way to estimate how much money he'll get. Have him and his parents complete the FAFSA, which will tell him his EFC (expected family contribution). Most prestigious schools and expensive privates meet or usually meet 100% of need (but not all - call the fin aid office to make certain), the difference between his EFC and the cost of the school. Here is the collegeboard page on finances: <a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/student/pay/add-it-up/401.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/student/pay/add-it-up/401.html&lt;/a>. I recommend going to the official FAFSA page to get the most accurate EFC: <a href="http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>As for your friend believing he can't be a journalist without a journalism degree, he needs to talk to some journalists!! Any challenging education will prepare him well for journalism if he makes the effort to join the school newspaper and seek journalism-related internships (two things you would need to do as a journalism major, anyway). </p>

<p>Northstarmom, his friend may have poor research skills, or he may just not want to get overly involved in the process as a defense mechansim. I feel like I really put my heart and soul into getting good grades in high school and researching schools. Then, when I had no say in where I went, I wondered if I wouldn't have been so upset had I not invested so much of myself into the process :/. Not the best way to deal with it, but hey, nobody's perfect.</p>