<p>I thought hard about whether to post this. Based on law, students may not have the “rights” we assume they do. No lawyer has identified him/herself here. No specifics were posted about how a lawyer helped. We all want our kids to be treated fairly; the law may not define “fair” as we think it does: </p>
<p>“Courts have consistently delineated the right of academic communities to discipline students for behavior that violates the student conduct code…”</p>
<p>“…courts have clarified…Some of the more significant differences are listed below:
Burden of Proof
Criminal: Beyond a reasonable doubt - Campus: Preponderance of evidence
Evidentiary Standard
Criminal: Strict rules of evidence apply - Campus: Allows all reasonable evidence, including hearsay
Right to Counsel
Criminal: Yes - Campus: Limited to when student is charged concurrently with a crime. Can restrict attorney’s role to advisory only
Outcome of Process
Criminal: Found to be guilty or innocent - Campus: Found to be in violation or not in violation of the student conduct code…” </p>
<p>I think there will be some “No that can’t be” or “That’s not right” responses.<br>
There is nothing wrong with consulting a lawyer- just know the stuation depends on how the courts view a U’s rights- not how we hope the law protects us.</p>
<p>lookingforward, I am a lawyer, and what you posted, while very helpful to know, does not change my view that anyone in the OP’s situation should consult an attorney. In my view, the fact that the student may have fewer rights in a college setting is all the more reason to consult an attorney, to take full advantage of whatever rights the student does have and to get advice on how best to present the student’s case within the constraints of the college’s rules.</p>
<p>The information you quote notes that the attorney’s role may be restricted to advisory only. I would say that that role can be very important.</p>
<p>If my son were subject to disciplinary action at his college, I would consult an attorney with expertise in this area immediately.</p>
<p>This thread is akin to someone asking for medical advice in a thread, without identifying the problem or the symptoms. That someone needs the advice of a doctor.</p>
<p>I agree that the OP and D need the advise of a lawyer. An adviser gives advise. A legal adviser (lawyer) gives legal advise. Whether or not the lawyer can set foot on campus has no bearing.</p>
<p>But we have gently asked for more info to give advice, and the OP has told us to lay off, and stop asking. I think this thread has run its course.</p>
<p>I concur. The title is misleading as the OP really doesn’t want help as she doesn’t want to share anything that would be helpful in providing accurate advice.</p>
<p>The school is treating it very seriously by making a permenant notation on the transcript as well as suspending the student for six months. I doubt they do this very often and it was likely a serious violation. The fact that the OP is unwilling to discuss it indicates the seriousness of the issue.</p>
<p>I agree with the other posters that say to make the best of the suspension and then decide if the student wants to return next year.</p>
<p>Sodium- thanks. I, too, would consult or do some deep, deep research into case law. It’s no light matter. Until finding the EMU site, all the lawyers who state they can help, refer to criminal matters. Here, I wanted to know just how much of a “kingdom” the U’s are.<br>
I am signing off this thread.</p>
<p>If my S were facing a 6-month suspension and a permanent black mark on his transcript and I were facing the loss of 6 month’s worth of COA, I would be consulting an attorney. If I <em>genuinely</em> believed that S was innocent, all the more so.</p>
<p>I just want to add that some of the differences between a criminal trial and a college disciplinary proceeding are not necessarily a problem. </p>
<p>For example, being able to introduce hearsay evidence could potentially help the student, especially in a “he said/she said” situation. If the accuser gave a different account to anyone else, and that other person is willing to testify, that hearsay testimony could be presented to contradict the accuser’s statements. </p>
<p>The “preponderance of the evidence” standard should also help the student in a true “he said/she said” situation. If it’s really just the accuser’s word against the student’s, that is hardly a preponderance of the evidence. An attorney who has been consulted could explain how to make this argument, either in the initial proceedings or on an appeal.</p>
<p>Sodium - I completely agree with you, but it appears that it is perhaps too late for the OP to take your advice.</p>
<p>The concept of self governance at the universities sounds lovely in theory, but I suspect that when it goes wrong, it goes very, very wrong. Anyone who has watched the housing department at almost any college deal with serious roommate imcompatibilities will realize the reality doesn’t live up to the hype - even at 50K per year.</p>
<p>Dealing with things in house may benefit the students by circumventing a police report/investigation as one poster suggested, but it also helps the university sweep things under the rug quickly and quietly. After all, they are already out there seeking a new batch of investors to bring in next year’s class - bad press of any sort doesn’t aid that process.</p>
<p>It might be interesting to see how much effect the Rutgers scandal has on the number of applications this year, as this is the time when they are all being sent out…I’m sure someone is sweating bullets about this.</p>
<p>OP,
Can your D. take classes somewhere else and then transfer these credits to her school and still take the rest of classes at her school when she is allowed to come back?
Or better yet if she is able to find a job that possibly pay for college education, she can transfer everything to another school and take her time to graduate from another place while working. People transfer credits from different countries, I cannot imagine that one cannot transfer most from one college into another within USA. So, it will take her few more months, but her records will be cleared, since she will show degree from a different school. I would do just that instead of trying to control situation that she was told by several proffessionals to be completely out of her control as of now. Attempt to control anything that is in hands of somebody else usually brings more trouble (depression) than relief.</p>
<p>When you are on suspension/dismissal from your school, you are not allowed to take classes at another school. This would just be a waste of money, because she could not transfer them back and would risk being suspended again for trying to circumvent the original decision for suspension.</p>
<p>OP’s daughter is a senior. It would be hard for her to transfer to another school because she would have to meet their residency requirements in order to get a degree. Since transfer applications also ask if the applicant was every suspended/dismissed from any college, she would have to disclose what happened at the current school.</p>
<p>Not many students get suspended from college as a result of disciplinary action, and I think it’s safe to say that vast majority of disciplinary suspensions are for freshman who are having too much fun with their newfound freedom. </p>
<p>By the time a student is a senior, he or she usually has learned the ropes and the boundaries of appropriate action and also has a lot invested in not breaking the rules.</p>
<p>Students don’t get suspended for something that was an inadvertent action. A suspension is a big deal and this university takes it especially serious since they put a permenant black mark on the official transcript. </p>
<p>Has anyone thought that perhaps the best thing is for the student to accept the consequences and use it as a learning opportunity? I think something this serious could result in jail time in another situation or losing a job that a person loves very much. Best she learn as much from it as she can.</p>
<p>I posted this idea on the first page of this thread. Regardless of how the family feels, the SCHOOL has taken this suspension very seriously. The student and family should do so as well…especially since this student is planning to return to THIS school to finish her degree. </p>
<p>Personally I think this student should get a job, and perhaps work with a counselor to understand the severity from the school’s point of view. I do not think I would “reward” my suspended student with a trip abroad for any reason.</p>
<p>crazymaria, in post #13 you said that because your daughter is a Senior, she could not transfer credits for courses that she took at another school. Did her college suggest that she take courses elsewhere without being able to transfer the credits?</p>
<p>Yes, the school treats suspensions very seriously as I said. </p>
<p>I wasn’t trying to imply that they chose to note this one on the transcript. I’m saying this school treats suspensions very harshly and much more harshly than many other schools, in other words a suspension is an incredibly serious punishment.</p>
<p>The attorney who advised throughout the process, as well as the student adviser who assisted her with her preparation, and was present at the hearing, both expressed their extreme surprise at the decision. Neither is allowed to speak/comment.</p>
<p>She can take 7 credits elsewhere, and they will transfer in—that’s the max. Better than nothing; and she has already started that process as well as a tough service project, self-imposed.</p>