<p>There is a correlation between SAT scores and LSAT scores. In fact, there is a formula floating out there somewhere. I have used it and it predicted exactly what my LSAT score was by using my SAT scores. Maybe the correlation is not as strong since the LSAT has changed in recent years.</p>
<p>^ ^</p>
<p>The correlation is considered total bunk by my lawyer colleagues and relatives. Several who scored quite low on the SATs/ACTs scored very high on the LSATs and ended up at T-5 or even T-2 law schools. On the other hand, knew dozens of 1400+/1600 on the pre-1995 SATs who ended up consistently scoring in the 150s-low 160s/180 range on the LSATsâŠnowhere near what one needs to get into a T-14 unless they have some outstanding accomplishments beyond a 4.0+ college GPA or a URM.</p>
<p>Here are some numbers from
[Do</a> the Math (even if youâre getting a PhD in English) | 21st Century Scholar](<a href=â21st Century Scholar | Intelligence is key.â>21st Century Scholar | Intelligence is key.)</p>
<p>Good news for the OP: At least sheâs not a history major!</p>
<p>2009 Job Market in Various Disciplines</p>
<p>Academic Discipline
Number of tenure-track positions being advertised
Number of potential PhD students on the job market
Number of first year PhD students</p>
<p>Foreign Language
236
627
752</p>
<p>English
299
965
721</p>
<p>History
159
1,100
1,310</p>
<p>Sources: National Science Foundation Survey on Earned Doctorates 2008-2009, MLA JOB Information List 2009-2010, American Historical Association 2010 Report</p>
<p>These recent posts have been quite interesting.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Excellent question. I presume in terms of pure financial security H&Y law grads would come out on top, but I donât really know if that is true, or to what extent.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That was the case before the 2008 recession. Nowadays, thatâs no longer a given as shown by the flood of resumes received by those hiring for lower status lawyer jobs formerly shunned by YLS law grads like local Assistant DA or the fact unemployed HLS grads do existâŠI know several of them. The legal field has been hit so hard that people who arenât in the field and/or know close friends/relatives who are working in the fieldâŠespecially recent graduates after 2008 still have little idea despite the recent NYT reports. </p>
<p>Also, a previous statement saying YLS grading is pass/fail is not exactly correct. They may call it thatâŠbut the grading is structured so there is some correspondence to the A-F grading and law firms are experienced enough to know who is top 1/3 or top 10% and who is below median.</p>
<p>The conclusion from this thread seems to be that pretty much all career options these days are financially uncertain and risky. So she might as well do what she likes and hope it all works out in the end.</p>
<p>The other thing I have been thinking about is, it seems to me, it is absolutely the appropriate time to be discussing this (college sophomore) because whether she is aiming for a PhD or Law School will make a difference in what she does with her time, how she positions herself. I canât really imagine the sort of students who have a shot at getting into top programs in English or law going to their professors fall of senior year and asking for recommendations for both. You are either serious about one or the other or not.</p>
<p>My views on this may be absolutely wrong. 
But I wouldnât advise my own kids to ask for recommendations for completely different fields and try to explain one was the back-up plan. It is a lot of work for a professor to support you in post grad plans. And the level of support can be crucial to success. I donât think you want your mentors to question your seriousness of purpose.</p>
<p>Do others have a different opinion?</p>
<p>edit: I donât know but assume Y & H publish employment results for their recent law grads. Is this totally wrong? I doubt this is public knowledge for Y & H PhD programs.</p>
<p>edit 2: vicariousparent is raising questions that come up in lots of families, especially probably the sort of families reading this board, and I donât think it is over involved or bad parenting to try and help our kids navigate this part of their lives successfully. Usually we know more about the world. The question to me is just really understanding your âchildâ and what is going to work best for that individual. And sometimes we really can see one of our offspring is headed in the wrong direction. Sometimes it is okay to try and change that. imho</p>
<p>ymmv
:)</p>
<p>edit: I donât know but assume Y & H publish employment results for their recent law grads. Is this totally wrong? I doubt this is public knowledge for Y & H PhD programs."</p>
<p>Actually, both publish the data. If what weâve seen from other law schools applies, the Y & H data likely are less than truthful.</p>
<p>There are no paths out there that guarantee much of anything out there, when people talk about professional school like lawyer, doctor, investment banking, they are talking to a large extent what existed in the past, not the reality. Law schools are churning out lawyers at a time when law firms are laying off lawyers right and left and when even HY laws school grads are finding that the path into the white shoe law firm isnât so easy or guaranteed. Investment banking is taking a major hit, Goldman for example just announced a loss (unheard of for them), and with changes in the regulatory laws for proprietary trading and such, it is likely that firms are going to be contracting rather then hiring HYP grads at 6 figure salaries as once happened. Doctors face challenges, including high debt load and the nature of health care these days, hospitals in financial trouble, insurance squeezing fees, etcâŠ</p>
<p>My point? That in going into anything, doing so because of expectations of financial security can often be more myth then reality, and you need to do something you feel you would live to do, and financial security and such be part of the picture. I will add that there is a lot more risk dedicating yourself to being a musician then a doctor, a doctor coming out of med school will more then likely be able to find a job to live on, whereas a music student will have dedicated themselves (or maybe even more) then a med student has, and living on it, well, is a crapshoot with the dice laid in against you.</p>
<p>I think in the OPâs case, that she should sit down with her D and talk about the realities of what it means to try and become an English professor, there is plenty written about the death of the tenure track, of PHdâs like musicians cobbling together as living teaching at several schools as adjuncts, of lack of benefits and such, and that very few openings come up. If she has this vision of being like Professor Kingsfield in âThe paper chaseâ (I realize that is law school, but still) , or that teaching will mean getting a well paid, tenure track position, it is not a bad thing to focus on the realitiesâŠplus the realities of working away to get as PHd, the amount of time she will have to spend getting through that, then trying to find teaching positions⊠if she still thinks it is what she wants to shoot for, then my take is encourage her to continue to find out the realities, but to go for it.</p>
<p>I am not speaking of this theoretically, it is what we are going through with our S, who is a passionate HS music student who wants to head into music, and in terms of getting serious he (and we) already had to face that, because in the strings world, you donât get serious in collegeâŠwhich has meant very serious financial and other support on our part. If he wasnât passionate about it, I would be discouraging him, but he has shown the incredible dedication required, and he also knows the realities of music, he is surrounded by working musicians and knows the reality (unlike many of the kids he is around, especially some of the kids from Asia, who have this idea that if they get into top music schools, win competitions, come out of a âname programâ, that they are going to be guaranteed to be a successful musician; said background and 2.25 will get you mugged on the L train as they sayâŠ), and he still wants to go into it. In the end, the cost of his music education will probably be more, total, then what many pay through medical or law school, given what it takes simply to get into a top music school/conservatory, and with very little guaranteed on the other end, and it isnât likely to get any more easy by the time he is out there. It means we are committed to supporting him as much as we can through college and beyond as well⊠and yeah, it is scary, it goes against common sense, but hey, thatâs life:)</p>
<p>As far as her coming back to you at 40 and saying âyou should have told me not to do itâ, I wouldnât worry about that. If your D decides that path, as long as you talked to her about the realities of being an English prof, about how hard it is, how teaching in a college is getting to be like other jobs these days, and she still wants to face it, then you have nothing to be guilty about. Once kids reach a certain age, they have to start making their own decisions more and more, and there has to come a time when they make the important ones and we canât make them. I will always be there to give my S advice, or help him through the rough patches as best I can, but he already has taken this on himself; unlike some of the other top level students, where their parents are still the ones pushing them to practice, where they literally at 17 or 18 are running their entire lives, my S at a younger age pretty much relies on us for advice, and to help him get to where he needs to get, we donât interact with his teacher much, we donât sit in lessons, we dontâ schedule his rehearsal time, we donât choose what he does or doesnât do (though we do give feedback), because he needs to decide this, and he also knows that we support him but it is his choices. Among other things, if we continue to make decisions for them, they could end up being people who never learn to make their own decisions, and what kind of life will they have then?</p>
<p>And what if you told her to study accounting, she is working for some accounting firm, and after some bleary tax season, killing herself, to count other peopleâs assets and money, and she came back and said âYou told me being an accountant was a lot better job, but it sucks, it is soulless, you should have allowed me to be a professorââŠ</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Actually, thatâs not as necessary or even critical as implied above for the following reasons:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>There are plenty of people who work for a few years before realizing they desire to pursue a PhD in English or go off to law school. Know plenty of people who did bothâŠincluding one grad student pursuing an English PhD at Yale after having gone to a T-5 law school and doing her time at a biglaw firm. In factâŠlaw schools are increasingly preferring students who spent a few years in the workforce rather than apply straight out of undergrad. In the case of a few like Northwestern LawâŠwork experience is practically a requirement. </p></li>
<li><p>There is no set âpre-law curriculumâ beyond majoring in something you love/excel in; taking courses which sharpen critical thinking, analytical, and writing skills; and pursuing a few ECs. As such, positioning herself in such a way to pursue an English PhD can also be an effective way to position herself for a top law schoolâŠprovided she fulfilled the above and ace the LSAT. </p></li>
<li><p>If anythingâŠonly thing I can think of for aspiring law students that IMHO is critical for them to assess their suitability for the legal field is to do a summer internship at a law firm as a paralegal/clerk. Only downside to that for many parents gung-ho on their kiddies becoming the next Perry Mason is that the realities of working in a law office/practicing law causes most undergrads/young adults to realize law is not really their cup of tea. On the other hand, that kid and his/her parents just avoided putting themselves $180K+ in the hole for a career they would have hated.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I donât know about law school. The few students I know in law school did some sort of summer internship or worked as paralegals for a while before applying.</p>
<p>The only US students I know in top humanities PhD programs went directly from undergrad and worked on research projects in their proposed graduate field of interest, either under a professorâs supervision or on a professorâs project. They had a significant piece of writing to send with the graduate application. They had enthusiastic faculty support from their undergraduate schools.</p>
<p>My sample is smallish :)</p>
<p>She get pushed around in those other fields, too. I could NEVER be a lawyer, since many lawyers seem to have no heartâŠhow could ANYONE protect a pedophile? If she had a heart, this would frustrate her, too. In fact, if she was passionate, becoming a professor would be perfect! You can give her your opinions, but donât push too much, or else there will be strain. Well, those are my two cents.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Which is why every top university, from Harvard to UChicago, offers joint JD/PhD programs, plus special fin aid packages and career advising, for people who manage to get into the law school and the GSAS independently. Oh wait.</p>
<p>Law schools care about two things: GPA and test scores. Preparing for law school, therefore, does not limit oneâs EC, research, internship or academic options.</p>
<p>^^you are right - JD/PHD</p>
<p>Interesting idea, a JD/Ph.D, but at least among the top few programs it appears that English is not one of the subjects for the PhD portion of the joint degree.</p>
<p>Firstly, as a physician, I must state that not everyone can become a doctor. You can get into med school if you have a 3.8 GPA, various awards (for me Phi Beta Kappa from an incredibly prestigious university, summa cum laude, Peace Corps, etc). The med school I went to has an admission rate hovering between 5-8%. Also I was an art history major, and consider myself quite creative. Many doctors are very creative: imagine you open up someoneâs abdomen and find a vascular anomaly that you didnât expect- wow- you have like 30 seconds to come up with a game plan to deal with it= creativity, intuition and smarts!!</p>
<p>Regarding going into liberal arts: I myself am in the process of applying to art schools and am going to pursue a long-held dream of focusing on my art. However, I can always pick up well-paid part time work (weekend moonlighting, holiday call) so I donât have to worry about being destitute.</p>
<p>Your daughter will soon realize, after talking to some English PhD students, just how grim the job market is for tenure-track positions. Tenure is being eroded, and replaced with adjunct professors who get no benefits and are paid much lessYou and your daughter should check out the job update at the Modern Language Association: the number of posted jobs for 2011 was a THIRD lower than before 2008/recession, and it had been in decline for 20 years.</p>
<p>It is a tragedy that the humanities are shrinking and dying. But it is happening at universities around the country. Your daughter needs to make a carefully thought out decision before entering a PhD program: what type of debt will she accrue; what are realistic salary expectations- and would she be willing to teach at an elite high school if she doesnât get tenure. That is a common default pathway for many- and not necessarily a bad one. If she loves to teach, than working with smart kids at elite prep schools may be a great career path. But she must understand the road to tenure is extremely difficult and will continue to worsen as state budgets lead to hiring freezes at state colleges (in California the UCâs have a hiring freeze- except for scientists who bring garner money with them.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Um, you apply to the PhD program of your choice, be that English or Classics or Astrophysics, and you apply to the law school. You get into both, you petition the special committee people to let you enroll in both, they agree, youâre set. Thatâs how it works at Harvard and UChicago, and I imagine thatâs how it works at most other universities as well.</p>
<p>Itâs not a joint degree; itâs the chance to pursue both degrees concurrently. Therefore there is nothing stopping you from doing English and law.</p>
<p>As the father of two sons, both of whom may very well become English teachers (or not), I would say, âMy goodness, your daughter is an adult! Have faith in her judgment and confidence that you have done your best as a parent for her to make her own decisions.â</p>
<p>I have also been a college counselor. I met soooo many unhappy students who were in majors only to satisfy their parents. And I know so many ex-lawyers and ex-doctors who spent the best years of their early adulthood toiling away in professional schools only to satisfy their parentsâ demands.</p>
<p>Several of them later bolted out of these professions as soon as they couldâor in some cases, never lifted a finger to practice, once they graduated.</p>
<p>I donât know why you would expect your child to do something that you would surely resent doing yourself.</p>
<p>That is true, I have met many unhappy lawyers and doctors, and others pushed into it by parental influence (no money or help if they didnât) and canât wait to retire and do what they really want to do. They donât seem to be doing that with their own children, , but they explain the downside might be not having as much as their parents did in âthingsâ. </p>
<p>Iâve also known many people that became teachers later in life and other professions because their dream couldnât be fulfilled, at least enough to be self-sufficient. Some do what they love in their spare time, write, sing, act, but were realistic, but have no regrets.</p>
<p>If nothing elseâa Ph.D program pays for 5/6 years of doing what you want, and coming out of it debt-free at the other end, if one lives frugally (which grad students are generally very good at.) So there you are, highly educated, no debts unless undergrad ones, and youâve done what you loved for a bunch of years. If at that point, if you donât see the English prof thing working (and for some poeple, it still will be an option), you can either put together some other kind of career that needs highly literate, critical-thinking-trained kinds of people, or go for some different kind of training. If those years were enjoyable, and funded, what more could one ask for? And if they prove not enjoyable, then donât continue â thatâs what life is for, to find that out and rechoose another option.</p>